Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Thanks George . 

is the git-cvsserver usable?

I wanted to try it , but the inability to tag from the cvs side is not 
something that i can sell to my managements .

 Justin


George Spelvin wrote:
>> - no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex SHA1)
>>
>> - Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering (ie,
>>   version 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)
>>
>> - Inability to refer to a file by a simple number
>> (the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with anything
>> more than 4-5 digits)
>>     
>
> This is Fundamentally Impossible in a distributed system.  You can try
> to fake it, but you just end up with horrible corner cases.  Basically,
> without a central server, who makes sure the incremental numbers are
> assigned without collisions?
>
> HOWEVER:
>
> - You can use abbreviated SHA1 references.  5-6 digits will do to start,
>   and you can go slightly longer when it becomes necessary.  Due to the
>   "birthday paradox", you need a  hash code space larger than (number of
>   objects)*(number of commits) to guarantee minimal chance of ambiguity.
>
> - You can have a post-commit hook that creates a simple numbered tag
>   for each commit to the "master" repository.  You guys working
>   independently will have to get a little fancier, but the "master"
>   can have simple numbers.
>
> Between those two, it should be pretty reasonable.
>
> To get what you're asking for, you'd have to have a "read-only git" that
> can ONLY pull from a centralized server that assigns the simple numbers,
> and can never do local commits.
>
> I think that seems kind of pointless to the developers.  They'd like to
> give your hardware guys the CHANCE to learn git, even if most only
> use a very small subset of it.
>
> Is it that hard to tell them to "ignore that box in gitk"?
>
>   
>> - Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git
>>   commands for non-sw guys is not going to happen)
>>
>> Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
>> It suited the purpose very well.
>>     
>
> You can use git-cvsserver to give them a CVS interface if that's what
> they're happy with...
>
>   
>> We don't use branches.
>> Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch model to
>> avoid mistakes.
>> We see branches as evil; some merges in Verilog codes means another 10+
>> hours of simulation and regression.
>>     
>
> I realize it's a big culture shock, but what git does with branch merges is
> *exactly* what CVS does with "cvs update".  So there truly is no evil.
> You can certainly use a "git rebase" style instead, but that's just style;
> it doesn't change the basic underlying issue: as soon as you drop strict
> locking and allow concurrent development, you have merges.
>
> "cvs update" basically does a "git rebase" and so doesn't show the merges
> in the revision history, but they're there, and the possibility of
> bugs is exactly the same.
>
> "git push" and "cvs commit" both have exactly the same rules: you
> may not append to the server history unless you've fetched the
> latest and resolved any conflicts.
>
> CVS branches are Horrible Awful Painful Things and I don't blame you
> for avoiding them.  Git doesn't force you to use branches, but they're
> downright pleasant to use, and provide a more accurate representation
> in the development history of the actual concurrent development.
>
>   
>> - 'git-show-branch' actually show reversed serialized version numbers (we
>>   want it the other way, accending)
>>     
>
> If you assign sequential version number tags on the central server, then
> you want an option for it to use tags rather than just branch names.  That
> will take care of this quite nicely.  Unfortunately, I can't seem to find
> it right now.  Gitk does show tags in a very natural way.
>   

Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Hi all,

* This email probably represent the whole hardware ASIC community about git 
*

I'm evaluating Git as the replacement of CVS for the ASIC group in my 
company,
but things are moving along very bumpy.

I (and many others doing the evaluation) love the tool dearly; we love the 
local repository and inter-db sync'ing .
I see a lot of potential in productivity and changes in work model that 
helps efficiency in ASIC dev.

BUT, my managers, some veterans, and directors are EXTREMELY concerned about 
the ease-of-use..
so much that they are going to pick SVN !  uh-oh....i m serious =(

Alot of people argued, why not SVN ? it's CVS++ and it's ease of use not a 
problem when comparing to Git.

here are the things not fitting right in ASIC dev:

- no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex SHA1)

- Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering (ie, 
version 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)

- Inability to refer to a file by a simple number
(the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with anything 
more than 4-5 digits)

- Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git 
commands for non-sw guys is not going to happen)

Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
It suited the purpose very well.

Most RTL design veterans only use less then 5-6 cvs commands in their whole 
life (LOL, i m serious) :

$ cvs checkout
$ cvs update
$ cvs log
$ cvs diff (tkdiff)
$ cvs status
$ cvs commit

We don't use branches.
Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch model to 
avoid mistakes .
We see branches as evil ; some merges in Verilog codes means another 10+ 
hours of simulation and regression.

I'm a verification engineers for the hardware chips designers, there we use 
Vera and SystemVerilog which requires much in
depth use of SCM functions.  So, the choice of tools is much more important 
on our side (the designers only checkin and out, diff, and minimal merging)

I m frustrated about the situration, i truly want Git in ASIC world !!!
(yell out loud... no p4, no svn, no clearcase... or i rather keep cvs)

Is there a way to specify the use of a simple GIT model in config, or like, 
info/attribute,
such that (in git main repository model of course) :

(1) SHA1s are hidden, but replaced by simple numbers
(2) Simple, incremental numbers (like 'git-5432' ; what we use 
'git-describe' to generate)
(3) Reference of simple revision numbers in all git commands and tools like 
gitk, not SHA1

I personally have no problem with the SHA1 . but many are allergic to it .

As I have learned so much about the power of git,
I understand that:

- 'git-show-branch' actually show reversed serialized version numbers (we 
want it the other way, accending)
- 'git-describe' gives you commit numbers since your last annotated tags ( 
ie, git-5423-g7def45b)

so, i understand that a simple numbering scheme can be done .

I truly hope that the in the main repository model of git this can be turned 
on by a switch or in the git config .

Is it too complicated to incorporate this model ?

I m eager to hear about the options

Thanks,

  Justin Leung

  ASIC Verification Engineering

  Redback Networks
  a company of Ericsson 

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Kevin Ballard]

On May 11, 2008, at 12:08 AM, Justin Leung wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> * This email probably represent the whole hardware ASIC community  
> about git *
>
> I'm evaluating Git as the replacement of CVS for the ASIC group in  
> my company,
> but things are moving along very bumpy.
>
> I (and many others doing the evaluation) love the tool dearly; we  
> love the local repository and inter-db sync'ing .
> I see a lot of potential in productivity and changes in work model  
> that helps efficiency in ASIC dev.
>
> BUT, my managers, some veterans, and directors are EXTREMELY  
> concerned about the ease-of-use..
> so much that they are going to pick SVN !  uh-oh....i m serious =(
>
> Alot of people argued, why not SVN ? it's CVS++ and it's ease of use  
> not a problem when comparing to Git.
>
> here are the things not fitting right in ASIC dev:
>
> - no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex  
> SHA1)
>
> - Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering  
> (ie, version 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)
>
> - Inability to refer to a file by a simple number
> (the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with  
> anything more than 4-5 digits)
>
> - Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git  
> commands for non-sw guys is not going to happen)
>
> Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
> It suited the purpose very well.
>
> Most RTL design veterans only use less then 5-6 cvs commands in  
> their whole life (LOL, i m serious) :
>
> $ cvs checkout
> $ cvs update
> $ cvs log
> $ cvs diff (tkdiff)
> $ cvs status
> $ cvs commit
>
> We don't use branches.
> Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch  
> model to avoid mistakes .
> We see branches as evil ; some merges in Verilog codes means another  
> 10+ hours of simulation and regression.
>
> [snip]

Honestly, it sounds like SVN is actually a good fit here. Just because  
git is awesome for many things does not mean it is the end-all-be-all  
of version control systems. SVN still has its place as the last true  
centralized system. Given your constraints and workflow, why do you  
think git is better than SVN?

-Kevin Ballard

-- 
Kevin Ballard
http://kevin.sb.org
kevin@sb.org
http://www.tildesoft.com

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Hi Kevin,

The ability of inter-user (designer-verifier) code sync'ing without letting 
the incomplete or incompatible RTL code to propagate to the main build 
stream is going to facilitate the design flow and efficiency .

The ability of local revision control means that no more over writing of 
design files until commit .

I think these 2 things will really buy us alot .

 Justin

> Honestly, it sounds like SVN is actually a good fit here. Just because 
> git is awesome for many things does not mean it is the end-all-be-all  of 
> version control systems. SVN still has its place as the last true 
> centralized system. Given your constraints and workflow, why do you  think 
> git is better than SVN?
>
> -Kevin Ballard
>
> -- 
> Kevin Ballard
> http://kevin.sb.org
> kevin@sb.org
> http://www.tildesoft.com
>
>
> 

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Kevin Ballard]

On May 11, 2008, at 12:29 AM, Justin Leung wrote:

> Hi Kevin,
>
> The ability of inter-user (designer-verifier) code sync'ing without  
> letting the incomplete or incompatible RTL code to propagate to the  
> main build stream is going to facilitate the design flow and  
> efficiency .
>
> The ability of local revision control means that no more over  
> writing of design files until commit .
>
> I think these 2 things will really buy us alot .
>
> Justin
>
>> Honestly, it sounds like SVN is actually a good fit here. Just  
>> because git is awesome for many things does not mean it is the end- 
>> all-be-all  of version control systems. SVN still has its place as  
>> the last true centralized system. Given your constraints and  
>> workflow, why do you  think git is better than SVN?
>>
>> -Kevin Ballard

But they come at an expense - no more linear revision numbers, more  
complex commands, etc. You can't have it both ways.

You could always use a main SVN repo and then use git-svn to maintain  
your own private git repos, do all the code syncing you want there,  
and then push it back to SVN when you want to send it back to the main  
build stream. If you go this route, be careful to maintain a linear  
history on the branch that tracks the SVN repo, as SVN cannot handle  
merges the way git can. You'll want to either do rebasing or squashed  
merges (to avoid multiple parents).

-Kevin Ballard

-- 
Kevin Ballard
http://kevin.sb.org
kevin@sb.org
http://www.tildesoft.com

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Thanks Kevin,

   I think i better give svn another serious look . 

but then, my impression from the rest of the people is that p4 and svn 
are not the ultimate tools for hardware development either .

I guess we just do not have the perfect tool for asic dev yet .

 Justin

Kevin Ballard wrote:
> But they come at an expense - no more linear revision numbers, more 
> complex commands, etc. You can't have it both ways.
>
> You could always use a main SVN repo and then use git-svn to maintain 
> your own private git repos, do all the code syncing you want there, 
> and then push it back to SVN when you want to send it back to the main 
> build stream. If you go this route, be careful to maintain a linear 
> history on the branch that tracks the SVN repo, as SVN cannot handle 
> merges the way git can. You'll want to either do rebasing or squashed 
> merges (to avoid multiple parents).
>
> -Kevin Ballard

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Dana How]

On Sat, May 10, 2008 at 10:29 PM, Justin Leung <jleung@redback.com> wrote:
> > Honestly, it sounds like SVN is actually a good fit here. Just because git
> > is awesome for many things does not mean it is the end-all-be-all  of
> > version control systems. SVN still has its place as the last true
> > centralized system. Given your constraints and workflow, why do you  think
> > git is better than SVN?
>
> The ability of inter-user (designer-verifier) code sync'ing without letting
> the incomplete or incompatible RTL code to propagate to the main build
> stream is going to facilitate the design flow and efficiency .
>
> The ability of local revision control means that no more over writing of
> design files until commit .
>
> I think these 2 things will really buy us alot .

Hi Justin,

I was originally drawn to git for the exact reasons you identified in
your 2nd email.
Namely,  it is extremely difficult in a p4-based environment to share
intermediate work within a design team without pushing the work out to
be visible by the entire team.  "Inter-user design sync'ing" is exactly what
I wanted.  In its absence,  we have made all references between files
relative.  This means you can flip over to someone else's netlist by changing
one path (say to the top-level design file) to point into someone's private
repository.  That top-level file then includes everything else using paths
relative to its own location,  so you get the correct stuff automatically.
Of course,  you get tripped up all the time by stuff implicitly used and not
named in the top-level file and its children...

Now,  it would be far better for this to be a lightweight branch in git,  and
then having people checkout this branch and use it.  (Because,  for example,
while one person is pointing into another's tree,  the latter can't change.)
But p4 (and cvs) has trained everyone to think of branches as painful and
for wizards only.  Plus I am not personally interested in investing any time
writing scripts on top of p4;  the ideas I outlined in the previous paragraph
were easier and almost as good as anything (easily) doable in p4
(but not as good as lightweight branching).

I agree with other responses to your email that you may want to think
about writing simple wrapper scripts that add tags to checkins with some
simple incrementing numeric part to keep your back-end people happy.  Yet
other responses were distracted by the linearity of your centralized/shared
checkins:  the inter-design sync'ing you want,  and the lightweight branching
it may imply,  aren't necessarily incompatible with the linear main
public history
that most design teams expect (and which is unavoidable in design work
containing lots of unmergeable files,  such as layout design).
So I don't necessarily think you would be happy with Subversion
(I'm certainly not happy with p4).

There are two other issues you may want to keep in mind.  In our
chip design activities,  we have a lot of very large files (100MB to ~3GB),
and the p4 repository has grown beyond 3TB.  Now,  this is simply
a data set size region which is not used by the git developers.  I think
the git data model is fine for large projects and files (Linus mused otherwise
a few weeks ago,  but it seems fine to me),  but due to lack of use,
various details when handling large files/projects remain to be worked out
and/or optimized as much as the rest of git.  It is true since I
started watching
there have been a lot of important improvements in this area.

Secondly,  you may also want to discuss with your IT people (or whoever
is responsible for back-up) how git packs/repacks repositories.  Ours were
very uncomfortable with the idea that the _entire_ repository has to get
re-arranged frequently.  I think they would have been much happier
with an approach more similar to how Unix systems were backed up in the
80s: have a level-0 repack which repacks everything, a level-1 which repacks
only stuff added since the last level-0,  level-2 since level-1,  etc.
To do this would be a pretty straightforward change to git-repack.sh,
probably using .keep files.  In each level it is clear what needs to
be backed up.

Anyway,  good luck!  Many of the things you touched on,  or which I
mentioned above,  have been (partially) implemented or at least
discussed before,
so your requests aren't crazy.  Unfortunately,  in my case,  having 6 surgeries
in my family in the last year has kept me from doing that much useful
for git along these lines and thus I remain stuck with p4 for now.
-- 
Dana L. How danahow@gmail.com +1 650 804 5991 cell

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Hi Dana,

 My best wishes to your family . having 6 surgeries is no joke.
I wish you have all recovered well .

Thanks for letting me know that I am not the crazy one to try to 
implement git in asia :)

I believe that this tool is full of potential in our community.
All it takes would be just a minor tweak to fit our methodology .

in the mean time, while my team is still happy with cvs ,
due to the design habits (good or bads.. but they are used to the way it 
is ) ,
probably svn and p4 are still the only logical choose ;
not that I m happy with these chooses though.

git will get there but i think no big hardware firm would like to be the 
first to adopt to it ..
especially my managements would like to minimize risks .


 Justin


Dana How wrote:
> Hi Justin,
>
> I was originally drawn to git for the exact reasons you identified in
> your 2nd email.
> Namely,  it is extremely difficult in a p4-based environment to share
> intermediate work within a design team without pushing the work out to
> be visible by the entire team.  "Inter-user design sync'ing" is exactly what
> I wanted.  In its absence,  we have made all references between files
> relative.  This means you can flip over to someone else's netlist by changing
> one path (say to the top-level design file) to point into someone's private
> repository.  That top-level file then includes everything else using paths
> relative to its own location,  so you get the correct stuff automatically.
> Of course,  you get tripped up all the time by stuff implicitly used and not
> named in the top-level file and its children...
>
> Now,  it would be far better for this to be a lightweight branch in git,  and
> then having people checkout this branch and use it.  (Because,  for example,
> while one person is pointing into another's tree,  the latter can't change.)
> But p4 (and cvs) has trained everyone to think of branches as painful and
> for wizards only.  Plus I am not personally interested in investing any time
> writing scripts on top of p4;  the ideas I outlined in the previous paragraph
> were easier and almost as good as anything (easily) doable in p4
> (but not as good as lightweight branching).
>
> I agree with other responses to your email that you may want to think
> about writing simple wrapper scripts that add tags to checkins with some
> simple incrementing numeric part to keep your back-end people happy.  Yet
> other responses were distracted by the linearity of your centralized/shared
> checkins:  the inter-design sync'ing you want,  and the lightweight branching
> it may imply,  aren't necessarily incompatible with the linear main
> public history
> that most design teams expect (and which is unavoidable in design work
> containing lots of unmergeable files,  such as layout design).
> So I don't necessarily think you would be happy with Subversion
> (I'm certainly not happy with p4).
>
> There are two other issues you may want to keep in mind.  In our
> chip design activities,  we have a lot of very large files (100MB to ~3GB),
> and the p4 repository has grown beyond 3TB.  Now,  this is simply
> a data set size region which is not used by the git developers.  I think
> the git data model is fine for large projects and files (Linus mused otherwise
> a few weeks ago,  but it seems fine to me),  but due to lack of use,
> various details when handling large files/projects remain to be worked out
> and/or optimized as much as the rest of git.  It is true since I
> started watching
> there have been a lot of important improvements in this area.
>
> Secondly,  you may also want to discuss with your IT people (or whoever
> is responsible for back-up) how git packs/repacks repositories.  Ours were
> very uncomfortable with the idea that the _entire_ repository has to get
> re-arranged frequently.  I think they would have been much happier
> with an approach more similar to how Unix systems were backed up in the
> 80s: have a level-0 repack which repacks everything, a level-1 which repacks
> only stuff added since the last level-0,  level-2 since level-1,  etc.
> To do this would be a pretty straightforward change to git-repack.sh,
> probably using .keep files.  In each level it is clear what needs to
> be backed up.
>
> Anyway,  good luck!  Many of the things you touched on,  or which I
> mentioned above,  have been (partially) implemented or at least
> discussed before,
> so your requests aren't crazy.  Unfortunately,  in my case,  having 6 surgeries
> in my family in the last year has kept me from doing that much useful
> for git along these lines and thus I remain stuck with p4 for now.
>   

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Christian MICHON]

On Sun, May 11, 2008 at 7:08 AM, Justin Leung <jleung@redback.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> * This email probably represent the whole hardware ASIC community about git
> *

I'm an ASIC designer too.

> here are the things not fitting right in ASIC dev:
>
> - no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex SHA1)

this is unimportant: if they want to track a specific release of a
file, it's better to look at what was the file's content from this cut
to that cut.

>
> - Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering (ie,
> version 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)

this is where tags and branches are useful to point to a specific release/cut.

>
> - Inability to refer to a file by a simple number
> (the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with anything
> more than 4-5 digits)

same answer

>
> - Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git
> commands for non-sw guys is not going to happen)

just use gitk and git-gui: almost all can be done with these two
graphical tools.

>
> Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
> It suited the purpose very well.

for linear development, yes. but when we were requested to perform
maintenance on a specific old cut, this was becoming a nightmare.

>
> Most RTL design veterans only use less then 5-6 cvs commands in their whole
> life (LOL, i m serious) :
>
> $ cvs checkout
> $ cvs update
> $ cvs log
> $ cvs diff (tkdiff)
> $ cvs status
> $ cvs commit

gitk, git-gui: two commands (actually gitk can be called from git-gui)

>
> We don't use branches.

this is the wrong approach.

> Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch model to
> avoid mistakes .
> We see branches as evil ; some merges in Verilog codes means another 10+
> hours of simulation and regression.

use branches to reference the different ressources (rtl, simulation, layout).
then track these branches between them for deliveries and work/flow.

use tags to mark specific releases/cuts.

> - 'git-show-branch' actually show reversed serialized version numbers (we
> want it the other way, accending)

you can create an alias: git-show-branch | tail -r

> - 'git-describe' gives you commit numbers since your last annotated tags (
> ie, git-5423-g7def45b)
>
> so, i understand that a simple numbering scheme can be done .

yes, I used to be scared by sha1 too: I even created numbered tags for
each commit. Until I read more about git, and stopped expecting using
git as svn/cvs.

>
> I truly hope that the in the main repository model of git this can be turned
> on by a switch or in the git config .

no, it would kill the right approach: embrace the index, and never look back.

>
> Is it too complicated to incorporate this model ?

you have to adapt your methods instead: trust another ASIC designer :-)

-- 
Christian
--
http://detaolb.sourceforge.net/, a linux distribution for Qemu with Git inside !

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Justin Leung]

Hi Christian,

 I personally have no problem dealing without revision numbers .
I merely used them directly .

However, I think I gotta admit that this is a world more than just us .

There's an obvious reason why Windows and MS are still standing, and IE 
is still the market holder :

we are the minority ..  a lot of people just care to get the work done .

surely i felt defeated, but one lesson to know is that the interface is 
very important for beginners ;

and a simplified numbering scheme is really what the managers/VPs are 
looking for to avoid rookie mistakes .

Thanks for the support tho =)
I know i m not alone

 Justin

Christian MICHON wrote:
> I'm an ASIC designer too.
> this is unimportant: if they want to track a specific release of a
> file, it's better to look at what was the file's content from this cut
> to that cut.
> just use gitk and git-gui: almost all can be done with these two
> graphical tools.
>
> for linear development, yes. but when we were requested to perform
> maintenance on a specific old cut, this was becoming a nightmare.
> gitk, git-gui: two commands (actually gitk can be called from git-gui)
> this is the wrong approach.
> use branches to reference the different ressources (rtl, simulation, layout).
> then track these branches between them for deliveries and work/flow.
>
> use tags to mark specific releases/cuts.
> you can create an alias: git-show-branch | tail -r
>   
>
> yes, I used to be scared by sha1 too: I even created numbered tags for
> each commit. Until I read more about git, and stopped expecting using
> git as svn/cvs.
>   
> no, it would kill the right approach: embrace the index, and never look back.
>   
>
> you have to adapt your methods instead: trust another ASIC designer :-)
>   

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Jakub Narebski]

"Justin Leung" <jleung@redback.com> writes:

> Hi all,
> 
> * This email probably represent the whole hardware ASIC community
>   about git *
> 
> I'm evaluating Git as the replacement of CVS for the ASIC group in
> my company, but things are moving along very bumpy.
> 
> I (and many others doing the evaluation) love the tool dearly; we
> love the local repository and inter-db sync'ing .  I see a lot of
> potential in productivity and changes in work model that helps
> efficiency in ASIC dev.

Please note that Git is not the only OSS DVCS.  There is Mercurial,
which has repute of being easy to use (in my opinion: at least for
mainly linear development), and there is Bazaar (formerly Bazaar-NG).
Both are mature products.

IMHO the main strength of Git (besides performance, but now I think it
is less of an edge, especially for not very large projects) is deling
with nonlinear history and branch-based (topic  branches) development.
If that is the worth paying essential complexness (as opposed to
accidental complexness, which unfortunately Git also has some) for...

> BUT, my managers, some veterans, and directors are EXTREMELY
> concerned about the ease-of-use..  so much that they are going to
> pick SVN !  uh-oh....i m serious =(
> 
> Alot of people argued, why not SVN ? it's CVS++ and it's ease of use
> not a problem when comparing to Git.

Perhaps Subversion is the right tool for you.

> Here are the things not fitting right in ASIC dev:
> 
> - no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex SHA1)

Incremental revision numbers _require_ single, central authority
assigning them.  You cannot have simple revision numbers in truly
distributed development.

Both Mercurial and Bazaar allow to use incremental revsision numbers,
at least for revisions (commits) along trunk (mainline).  Note that
revision numbers are either local to repository (Mercurial, Bazaar),
or require treating one of repository as special, i.e. use different
commands for central repository from commands used when merging in
other repositories (Bazaar).

> - Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering (ie,
> version 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)

You can tag, and use git-describe output, i.e. v1.4.2, or
v1.5.5.1-182-g7480b28.  Or you can use transitional "reverse"
numbering, counting from latest revision, like HEAD^, master~10,
or master@{2} (the last has only local meaning, and only if reflogs
are enabled which is now default).

> - Inability to refer to a file by a simple number

Errr... refer to _file_ by a number? Why not a pathname, or revision
and pathname (<rev>:<path> format)?

> (the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with
> anything more than 4-5 digits)

You can use shortened sha1, usually 7 characters... but I think this
is an artificial fear.  When using git you almost never have to use
either SHA1, or shortened SHA1 identifier.

> - Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git
> commands for non-sw guys is not going to happen)

Now that Cogito is unmaintained, you can try EasyGit (eg) or Pyrite,
although AFAIK both are in early development stages.  And there is
also git-gui and other commit tools there...

> Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
> It suited the purpose very well.

And is probably responsible for some SCM bad habits...

> Most RTL design veterans only use less then 5-6 cvs commands in their
> whole life (LOL, i m serious)
[...]
> We don't use branches.

Bad habit!

Probably because branching in CVS was very complicated, error prone,
and just plain uncomfortable to use (sticky tags, blehhh...).

Subversion makes it easy to branch, but developers forgot to make it
easy to merge (this is to be corrected in upcoming 1.5 release, and
you can migitate it using third party tools / extensions like svnmerge
or SVK; the last also gives replicability, and beginnings of
distributed development).

> Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch model
> to avoid mistakes .
> We see branches as evil ; some merges in Verilog codes means another
> 10+ hours of simulation and regression.

Bad habit!

Branches are there to not stomp on each other changes when deveoping
independent features.  They are also a must have if you plan to
maintain fixes to old releases.

When merging is easy it allows you to merge early, or do a try merge,
and fix conflict early, when they are easy to spot and resolve.

Please watch Linus Torvalds opinionated Google Tech Talk on Git:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
  http://git.or.cz/gitwiki/LinusTalk200705Transcript

> I'm a verification engineers for the hardware chips designers, there
> we use Vera and SystemVerilog which requires much in
> depth use of SCM functions.  So, the choice of tools is much more
> important on our side (the designers only checkin and out, diff, and
> minimal merging)

Could you elaborate? What SCM functions do you need?

> I m frustrated about the situration, i truly want Git in ASIC world !!!
> (yell out loud... no p4, no svn, no clearcase... or i rather keep cvs)

Subversion _is_ improvement on CVS, some brain damages of it aside (as
for example lack of _unchangeable_ tags; and no, unchangeable by
convention doesn't count).  You can use git-svn to interact with it.
 
> Is there a way to specify the use of a simple GIT model in config,
> or like, info/attribute, such that (in git main repository model of
> course):
> 
> (1) SHA1s are hidden, but replaced by simple numbers
> (2) Simple, incremental numbers (like 'git-5432' ; what we use
> 'git-describe' to generate)
> (3) Reference of simple revision numbers in all git commands and tools
> like gitk, not SHA1

I think you can get it by heavy use of tags from within hooks, even
without changes to git core, and without using any wrapper /
porcelain.  But this might affect performance.

Note (again) that "simple numbers" for revision names are possible
_only_ in centralized development, with centralized authority
assigning those incremental numbers ("monitor" in parallell
computing).

> I personally have no problem with the SHA1 . but many are allergic to it .

Again: in my use of git I almost never need to use SHA1, or shorthened
SHA1, even for copy'n'paste.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Poland
ShadeHawk on #git

Re: Verilog/ASIC development support is insufficient in git , help!

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Sat, 10 May 2008, Justin Leung wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> * This email probably represent the whole hardware ASIC community about git *
> 
> I'm evaluating Git as the replacement of CVS for the ASIC group in my company,
> but things are moving along very bumpy.
> 
> I (and many others doing the evaluation) love the tool dearly; we love the
> local repository and inter-db sync'ing .
> I see a lot of potential in productivity and changes in work model that helps
> efficiency in ASIC dev.
> 
> BUT, my managers, some veterans, and directors are EXTREMELY concerned about
> the ease-of-use..
> so much that they are going to pick SVN !  uh-oh....i m serious =(
> 
> Alot of people argued, why not SVN ? it's CVS++ and it's ease of use not a
> problem when comparing to Git.

As far as I can tell, wherever SVN is more powerful than CVS, it is 
complicated to use. I think that, if all you want if to rename files and 
directories, you could use SVN. Otherwise, the way SVN implements advanced 
features is more confusing than git.

> here are the things not fitting right in ASIC dev:
> 
> - no incremental revision numbers (they are so scared of the 40hex SHA1)

This is pretty much forced by being able to trade changes without going 
through the central repo combined with the desire to have stable 
identifiers. If I can get from you a version after the fifth version in 
the central repo and before the sixth version there, what number is the 
revision I got?

On the other hand, we should be able to make the sequence of latest 
commits on the central site be marked with numbers in increasing order. 
This is slightly different from a linear order (there will be commits 
without numbers, for example, if a developer does a series of commits and 
then sends in a batch, or does some commits and a merge; only the ends of 
these sets get numbers).

> - Inability to reference without SHA1, they want simple numbering (ie, version
> 100, 120, 120.1, 130.4.5)

Whenever you have an important state, you can tag it with a number. Not 
everything gets numbered that way, but the other things aren't so 
interesting for people working at that level anyway.

> - Inability to refer to a file by a simple number
> (the backend guys will be confused by SHA1; they can't work with anything more
> than 4-5 digits)

I think you'd only want to send the backend guys commits that you'd tag 
with version numbers.

> - Complexity of commands (although we can have warpper, but real git commands
> for non-sw guys is not going to happen)
>
> Most hardware chip designers were using CVS since their first job.
> It suited the purpose very well.
> 
> Most RTL design veterans only use less then 5-6 cvs commands in their whole
> life (LOL, i m serious) :
> 
> $ cvs checkout
> $ cvs update
> $ cvs log
> $ cvs diff (tkdiff)
> $ cvs status
> $ cvs commit

$ git clone / git checkout
$ git pull
$ git log
$ git diff
$ git status
$ git commit -a
$ git push

The main training is:

 - type "git" instead of "cvs"
 - to get a new working directory, you use "clone" (but to revert a 
   working directory file to the committed state, you still use 
   "checkout")
 - "update" is "pull"
 - use "-a" with "commit", unless you're committing only a limited set of 
   paths
 - after "commit", check whether what you did was right, and then do "git 
   push" to publish your changes

> We don't use branches.
> Our model is strict forward with a centralized, one main branch model to avoid
> mistakes .

There are multiple things that branches do.

 - The first is that, whenever you have different revisions in different 
   places, they're always different branches in some sense. That is, 
   there's a "latest state of the project" as checked into the central 
   server, but also a yet-newer state that's each person's working 
   directory contents, and often a trailing state that's the central 
   server state as of the last time the person updated. Each of these is 
   tracked even in CVS, but in CVS they're implicit and qualitatively 
   different, while in git they're explicit and mostly stored the same 
   way.

 - The second is that there can be multiple lines of development in the 
   central location, such that there's a latest checked-in-and-published 
   state for each that's different. This is explicit in CVS, and doesn't 
   work very well, and is also available in git and is much nicer. But, in 
   either case, you don't need to use it. (In fact, git's own development 
   barely uses it, and only for bugfixes to older versions while the 
   current version is under development; aside from that, all of the 
   branches in git development are of other types.)

 - In git, in addition to having a "last seen state of mainline" branch, 
   you can have "last seen states" of other developers' working 
   directories. And you can have branches as ways of putting changes out 
   for other developers to get without the main branch getting them. For 
   example, Junio's "next" branch is all essentially previews of stuff he 
   might commit to the mainline. This is fundamentally just a unified 
   tracking mechanism for the ability to do developer-to-developer 
   transfers of state. This doesn't need to be any more (or less) visible 
   to project managers than the contents of people's CVS working 
   directories are (that is, it'll let them know how close the developers 
   are to having a version they can get into the mainline).

 - in git, you can use branches to work on multiple different changes 
   without having multiple working directories. This is, again, a private 
   matter for the developer, and entirely optional.

> We see branches as evil ; some merges in Verilog codes means another 10+ hours
> of simulation and regression.

Well, you'd also have the same 10+ hours in order to retest your changes 
after a "cvs update" if somebody else commits while you're working on 
something. A merge in the git sense is essentially the same thing, except 
that you can have multiple committed states on the local side, and it 
understands if the same change reaches the mainline by multiple routes 
because people exchanged work directly.

On ther other hand, you can use "git rebase" and it works almost exactly 
like "cvs update" except that you've saved the changes that are from your 
local working directory so that, if you mess up resolving conflicts, you 
can abort and try again.

> I'm a verification engineers for the hardware chips designers, there we use
> Vera and SystemVerilog which requires much in
> depth use of SCM functions.  So, the choice of tools is much more important on
> our side (the designers only checkin and out, diff, and minimal merging)
>
> I m frustrated about the situration, i truly want Git in ASIC world !!!
> (yell out loud... no p4, no svn, no clearcase... or i rather keep cvs)
> 
> Is there a way to specify the use of a simple GIT model in config, or like,
> info/attribute,
> such that (in git main repository model of course) :
> 
> (1) SHA1s are hidden, but replaced by simple numbers
> (2) Simple, incremental numbers (like 'git-5432' ; what we use 'git-describe'
> to generate)
> (3) Reference of simple revision numbers in all git commands and tools like
> gitk, not SHA1

If you have a post-update hook on the central repo that makes a tag of the 
form "r<number>", with <number> counting up, that'll pretty much do it. 
But there will be other commits that don't get tagged because they were 
already historical when they reached the central server. But people 
generally don't have to care about those unless they're already interested 
in doing something complicated.

	-Daniel
*This .sig left intentionally blank*