Splitting the mailing list up

Splitting the mailing list up

[Rico Secada]

Hi all.

Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
sub-categories?

Example:

announce@
dev@
user@

etc.

The list receives a lot of traffic and it might be beneficial to split
things up.

Anyway, just a suggestion.

Best regards.

Rico

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 21:00, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
> The list receives a lot of traffic and it might be beneficial to split
> things up.

Why is a lot of traffic a bad thing?

E.g. if you don't want all the patch submissions you can just filter out PATCH.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Rico Secada]

On Sat, 25 Sep 2010 21:05:12 +0000
Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason <avarab@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 21:00, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
> > The list receives a lot of traffic and it might be beneficial to
> > split things up.
> 
> Why is a lot of traffic a bad thing?

I didn't say it was a bad thing :)

I was looking at this from a "relevancy" point of view. Kinda like the
way Debian or FreeBSD has split their lists up.

> E.g. if you don't want all the patch submissions you can just filter
> out PATCH.

That's one way to do it, but I think splitting things up is better.

Some people live on limited bandwidth and it takes time to download all
emails, especially if you are subscribing to other mailing lists as
well.

> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Jay Soffian]

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 5:19 PM, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
> That's one way to do it, but I think splitting things up is better.

Hi. You seem to be new here. Let me direct you to some previous
discussions of this topic:

http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/60610/focus=60655
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/105417/focus=105606

j.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[walter harms]

+1

Rico Secada schrieb:
> Hi all.
> 
> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
> sub-categories?
> 
> Example:
> 
> announce@
> dev@
> user@
> 
> etc.
> 
> The list receives a lot of traffic and it might be beneficial to split
> things up.
> 
> Anyway, just a suggestion.
> 
> Best regards.
> 
> Rico
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe git" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Sebastien Douche]

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 23:00, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
> sub-categories?
>
> Example:
>
> announce@
> dev@
> user@

Why not, but the simple way is to create another ml for patchs.
Without patchs, the traffic seems relatively low.


-- 
Sebastien Douche <sdouche@gmail.com>
Twitter: http://bit.ly/afkrK (agile, lean, python, open source)

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 26/09/2010, a las 18:02, Sebastien Douche escribió:

> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 23:00, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
>> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
>> sub-categories?
>> 
>> Example:
>> 
>> announce@
>> dev@
>> user@
> 
> Why not, but the simple way is to create another ml for patchs.
> Without patchs, the traffic seems relatively low.

This has come up many times, and been rejected each time. Check the archives for the reasons why.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason]

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 17:30, Wincent Colaiuta <win@wincent.com> wrote:
> El 26/09/2010, a las 18:02, Sebastien Douche escribió:
>
>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 23:00, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
>>> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
>>> sub-categories?
>>>
>>> Example:
>>>
>>> announce@
>>> dev@
>>> user@
>>
>> Why not, but the simple way is to create another ml for patchs.
>> Without patchs, the traffic seems relatively low.
>
> This has come up many times, and been rejected each time. Check the archives for the reasons why.

Right, but for the *main* mailing list. However if Rico, Walter and
others would find a limited traffic mailing list valuable there's
nothing stopping them from setting one up.

Jay linked to an archive where someone is running RSS feeds of the
different parts of the git list, similarly you could set up a git-user
list which would be a version of the git list filtered to reduce patch
traffic.

Maybe that list wouldn't make much sense when patches are intermingled
with regular discussion, but it's worth a try.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Nicolas Sebrecht]

The 26/09/10, Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason wrote:

> Right, but for the *main* mailing list. However if Rico, Walter and
> others would find a limited traffic mailing list valuable there's
> nothing stopping them from setting one up.
> 
> Jay linked to an archive where someone is running RSS feeds of the
> different parts of the git list, similarly you could set up a git-user
> list which would be a version of the git list filtered to reduce patch
> traffic.
> 
> Maybe that list wouldn't make much sense when patches are intermingled
> with regular discussion, but it's worth a try.

zsh mailing lists(1) are splitted in users and workers where submissions
in the users list are forwarded to workers. This looks like a good
solution for the git mailing list(s), IMHO.

1. http://zsh.sourceforge.net/Arc/mlist.html

-- 
Nicolas Sebrecht

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Adrian Buehlmann]

On 25.09.2010 23:00, Rico Secada wrote:
> Hi all.
> 
> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
> sub-categories?
> 
> Example:
> 
> announce@
> dev@
> user@
> 
> etc.
> 
> The list receives a lot of traffic and it might be beneficial to split
> things up.
> 

I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
used to). Not sure about announce though.

When I recently subscribed to this list (after having been a long time
subscriber to the Mercurial lists too), I was interested in seeing
discussions about git usage to help me get started with git.

I also think searching the archives would be a bit easier if discussions
of new git development details and its usage would be separated.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Sebastien Douche]

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 08:22, Adrian Buehlmann <adrian@cadifra.com> wrote:
> I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
> splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
> used to). Not sure about announce though.

So, what is the decision? Split or not split?

-- 
Sebastien Douche <sdouche@gmail.com>
Twitter: http://bit.ly/afkrK (agile, lean, python, open source)

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Adrian Buehlmann]

On 28.09.2010 22:06, Kevin Ballard wrote:
> On Sep 27, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Adrian Buehlmann wrote:
> 
>> I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
>> splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
>> used to). Not sure about announce though.
>>
>> When I recently subscribed to this list (after having been a long time
>> subscriber to the Mercurial lists too), I was interested in seeing
>> discussions about git usage to help me get started with git.
>>
>> I also think searching the archives would be a bit easier if discussions
>> of new git development details and its usage would be separated.
> 
> Perhaps it would make more sense to simply create a new list for git
> newbies to get help, and to not change the nature of this existing list
> at all.

Of course, I would be fine if this list here would be simply defined as
the "git development centric list" and a new, more usage-centric list
could be started (git-users ?).

I wouldn't consider myself a complete newbie (given my DVCS knowledge I
already have from my involvement in the Mercurial and TortoiseHg
projects -- I contributed code to both of them).

I was just interested in using git, not (yet) developing. This includes
also advanced uses and problems advanced users may have with git
(helping me to get a better understanding of git).

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Michael J Gruber]

Adrian Buehlmann venit, vidit, dixit 29.09.2010 10:36:
> On 28.09.2010 22:06, Kevin Ballard wrote:
>> On Sep 27, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Adrian Buehlmann wrote:
>>
>>> I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
>>> splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
>>> used to). Not sure about announce though.
>>>
>>> When I recently subscribed to this list (after having been a long time
>>> subscriber to the Mercurial lists too), I was interested in seeing
>>> discussions about git usage to help me get started with git.
>>>
>>> I also think searching the archives would be a bit easier if discussions
>>> of new git development details and its usage would be separated.
>>
>> Perhaps it would make more sense to simply create a new list for git
>> newbies to get help, and to not change the nature of this existing list
>> at all.
> 
> Of course, I would be fine if this list here would be simply defined as
> the "git development centric list" and a new, more usage-centric list
> could be started (git-users ?).

You mean something like:

git-users@googlegroups.com

I don't participate there, but my impression is that it's really a user
group.

FWIW: When I was new, the volume over here was too much for me also, and
simply filtering out all PATCH messages was a perfect solution. I've
removed that filter meanwhile, though...

Michael

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Erik Faye-Lund]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Michael J Gruber
<git@drmicha.warpmail.net> wrote:
> Adrian Buehlmann venit, vidit, dixit 29.09.2010 10:36:
>> On 28.09.2010 22:06, Kevin Ballard wrote:
>>> On Sep 27, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Adrian Buehlmann wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
>>>> splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
>>>> used to). Not sure about announce though.
>>>>
>>>> When I recently subscribed to this list (after having been a long time
>>>> subscriber to the Mercurial lists too), I was interested in seeing
>>>> discussions about git usage to help me get started with git.
>>>>
>>>> I also think searching the archives would be a bit easier if discussions
>>>> of new git development details and its usage would be separated.
>>>
>>> Perhaps it would make more sense to simply create a new list for git
>>> newbies to get help, and to not change the nature of this existing list
>>> at all.
>>
>> Of course, I would be fine if this list here would be simply defined as
>> the "git development centric list" and a new, more usage-centric list
>> could be started (git-users ?).
>
> You mean something like:
>
> git-users@googlegroups.com
>
> I don't participate there, but my impression is that it's really a user
> group.
>

http://groups.google.com/group/git-users says "This is the git mailing
list for users, feel free to ask any question about git usage.", so
yes. I think we already have that list. Perhaps all we need to do is
to add a link to it on the front-page of git-scm.com, next to the link
to this? Perhaps something like "You can also ask the Git development
community directly at our git@vger.kernel.org mailing list, or the Git
user community at git-users@googlegroups.com"?

That would imply making it a bit more official, but perhaps it's a
good compromise?

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Adrian Buehlmann]

On 29.09.2010 15:00, Erik Faye-Lund wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Michael J Gruber
> <git@drmicha.warpmail.net> wrote:
>> Adrian Buehlmann venit, vidit, dixit 29.09.2010 10:36:
>>> On 28.09.2010 22:06, Kevin Ballard wrote:
>>>> On Sep 27, 2010, at 11:22 PM, Adrian Buehlmann wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think this would definitely be an improvement for git users. At least
>>>>> splitting up into dev and user, like Mercurial does it too (which I am
>>>>> used to). Not sure about announce though.
>>>>>
>>>>> When I recently subscribed to this list (after having been a long time
>>>>> subscriber to the Mercurial lists too), I was interested in seeing
>>>>> discussions about git usage to help me get started with git.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also think searching the archives would be a bit easier if discussions
>>>>> of new git development details and its usage would be separated.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it would make more sense to simply create a new list for git
>>>> newbies to get help, and to not change the nature of this existing list
>>>> at all.
>>>
>>> Of course, I would be fine if this list here would be simply defined as
>>> the "git development centric list" and a new, more usage-centric list
>>> could be started (git-users ?).
>>
>> You mean something like:
>>
>> git-users@googlegroups.com
>>
>> I don't participate there, but my impression is that it's really a user
>> group.
>>

Oh. I didn't know that group existed. Interesting. Thanks for the pointer.

> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users says "This is the git mailing
> list for users, feel free to ask any question about git usage.", so
> yes. I think we already have that list. Perhaps all we need to do is
> to add a link to it on the front-page of git-scm.com, next to the link
> to this? Perhaps something like "You can also ask the Git development
> community directly at our git@vger.kernel.org mailing list, or the Git
> user community at git-users@googlegroups.com"?
> 
> That would imply making it a bit more official, but perhaps it's a
> good compromise?

At least it could be mentioned on
https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitCommunity
?

Anyway, I've now filtered the PATCH emails as suggested and I'll keep
subscribed here :)

Thanks for the hints and pointers, everyone.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Erik Faye-Lund]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:20 PM, Adrian Buehlmann <adrian@cadifra.com> wrote:
> On 29.09.2010 15:00, Erik Faye-Lund wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:08 AM, Michael J Gruber
>> <git@drmicha.warpmail.net> wrote:
>>> Adrian Buehlmann venit, vidit, dixit 29.09.2010 10:36:
>>>> Of course, I would be fine if this list here would be simply defined as
>>>> the "git development centric list" and a new, more usage-centric list
>>>> could be started (git-users ?).
>>>
>>> You mean something like:
>>>
>>> git-users@googlegroups.com
>>>
>>> I don't participate there, but my impression is that it's really a user
>>> group.
>>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users says "This is the git mailing
>> list for users, feel free to ask any question about git usage.", so
>> yes. I think we already have that list. Perhaps all we need to do is
>> to add a link to it on the front-page of git-scm.com, next to the link
>> to this? Perhaps something like "You can also ask the Git development
>> community directly at our git@vger.kernel.org mailing list, or the Git
>> user community at git-users@googlegroups.com"?
>>
>> That would imply making it a bit more official, but perhaps it's a
>> good compromise?
>
> At least it could be mentioned on
> https://git.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/GitCommunity
> ?

Done.

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Sverre Rabbelier]

Heya,

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:00, Erik Faye-Lund <kusmabite@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users says "This is the git mailing
> list for users, feel free to ask any question about git usage.", so
> yes. I think we already have that list. Perhaps all we need to do is
> to add a link to it on the front-page of git-scm.com, next to the link
> to this? Perhaps something like "You can also ask the Git development
> community directly at our git@vger.kernel.org mailing list, or the Git
> user community at git-users@googlegroups.com"?
>
> That would imply making it a bit more official, but perhaps it's a
> good compromise?

Perhaps we can just at 'git@vger.kernel.org' as one of the list users,
so that all mails sent to git-users@googlegroups.com are forwarded to
the git list? As long as the git-users group is open to all, that
should Just Work, no?

-- 
Cheers,

Sverre Rabbelier

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Brandon Casey]

On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Sverre Rabbelier <srabbelier@gmail.com> wrote:
> Heya,
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 15:00, Erik Faye-Lund <kusmabite@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/git-users says "This is the git mailing
>> list for users, feel free to ask any question about git usage.", so
>> yes. I think we already have that list. Perhaps all we need to do is
>> to add a link to it on the front-page of git-scm.com, next to the link
>> to this? Perhaps something like "You can also ask the Git development
>> community directly at our git@vger.kernel.org mailing list, or the Git
>> user community at git-users@googlegroups.com"?
>>
>> That would imply making it a bit more official, but perhaps it's a
>> good compromise?
>
> Perhaps we can just at 'git@vger.kernel.org' as one of the list users,
> so that all mails sent to git-users@googlegroups.com are forwarded to
> the git list? As long as the git-users group is open to all, that
> should Just Work, no?

If it worked, it would be just like the zsh mailing list setup that was
suggested, which is a good thing IMHO.

If gmane is to be trusted (and if I parsed the output of:

   http://gmane.org/output-rate.php?group=gmane.comp.version-control.git

correclty), then the git mailing list has received an average of about
80 messages per day in 2010.

The "about" page for the git-users group seems to indicate that the
group has received about 65 messages per _month_ over the last
4 higher-traffic-than-normal months.  A drop in the bucket compared
to the main mailing list.

But, the "about" page here:

   http://groups.google.com/group/git-users/about

also says:

   "Only members can post"

That would need to be opened up so that non-members from the
main git list could reply to posts originating from the "users"
group.

-Brandon

Re: Splitting the mailing list up

[Leonid Podolny]

On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 11:00 PM, Rico Secada <coolzone@it.dk> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> Would it be a bad idea to split the Git mailing list up in several
> sub-categories?
>

As far as I can tell, splitting a list into -dev and -user lists tends
to drive the quality of the -user list down. The people with actual
knowledge about the topic ask themselves: "Why do I keep answering
questions from clueless noobs, while all the action I care about
happens on another list?" and end up leaving the list altogether.
I think that as long as the traffic on this list remains manageable,
we should keep everything as-is.