From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99FB7C433DB for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 02:11:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 540162256F for ; Thu, 24 Dec 2020 02:11:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1728367AbgLXCLJ (ORCPT ); Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:11:09 -0500 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:57548 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726288AbgLXCLI (ORCPT ); Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:11:08 -0500 Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 247BEC061794 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 18:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id i6so782648otr.2 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 18:10:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QXSKJOyk5bwQ/3Kp2y4XkRBiw2icQrgtlsI5xoGiCBA=; b=EKktB/bPTLK/Lscpk7Gm/pKM0z8fvxlXdXfuG/SXM8NjhVpouy5UJXrKNlCTk8z5ef KAdZpXYDULh16RW86wxR91Ubvz/uwbt4jTNwjJbTKALwhs7npLM2rYILGCEVWiaFt63V lyvFcdMzL4cNUxIPVfyrRirPueVQ80YFqxNSXB8t6LqvDfnetAhJkjSHtc8IHkPl7nNq WR+jPpOKNEC+G5/6CcbNOo7oV1fOfmryN+MCh41L4wVx3f2ECug3HCZhxfk37aKT6H/1 pU+olHCHmn/JaBKeDRtXVPngBvMfR3Vkvt5/vPS4Ol4fbC0jZtQX2MGmUsgmYuV8532T IgYQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QXSKJOyk5bwQ/3Kp2y4XkRBiw2icQrgtlsI5xoGiCBA=; b=bBRq3h1K1boIEqVLqabbpcZQBk5Vtj3GUIeDZP72m0qEY5Wns7JEDXcjUqn07tsttM lB9hm1NMGcNth25f8u7Lt2HHPykNPDVi0jtsWgbxUVTVhxnRVHgdJdQSgCMLlMkVjVm0 Bibzc0xX6zVL9Xdb8SE9exfWr0Mlkbxo93PV2RZLMUWN3Dkwov+AWISXWeQCsgUaeVsX GblNuwgL3aAm2hyjy2jjbzBiizsxLOs3Mo9xE2+Duh/IivILsXMw1asb03alC7DJ7ww1 KpV5DOPK0uDdbtXl6nmugCtXvOUZ1sTS6LhT5f5VbdxEW2tUsCxocQ4POadNFYSMG3ml GjGQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530fpzJR6hpJK50YQu89I+yK1OUf/+O6gqSxUDz3schUkR4BSnK7 on5WNqBqMTm5Rwuxh0qztJEO4wwVRd/fbw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwbJUk08rGswmO/pESxiVcGZQHNuH2DVR09dW9QuzKmsOpKH7Lg6xkJ0e0a2ZI6EhOb0e+kFQ== X-Received: by 2002:a9d:37c4:: with SMTP id x62mr21891357otb.87.1608775800220; Wed, 23 Dec 2020 18:10:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (189-209-26-110.static.axtel.net. [189.209.26.110]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p132sm5045659oia.41.2020.12.23.18.09.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 23 Dec 2020 18:09:59 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 20:09:58 -0600 From: Felipe Contreras To: Derrick Stolee Cc: Felipe Contreras , git@vger.kernel.org Message-ID: <5fe3f8763207f_7855a20860@natae.notmuch> In-Reply-To: References: <20201223061718.102779-1-felipe.contreras@gmail.com> <3d21cc06-415d-860b-7bd2-31047d68bc05@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH] CODE_OF_CONDUCT: expect tolerance, not respect Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org brian m. carlson wrote: > On 2020-12-23 at 14:46:56, Derrick Stolee wrote: > > On 12/23/2020 1:17 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > > As many argued; respect cannot be manufactured at will. If you don't > > > respect an idea (for example that the Earth is flat), then it doesn't > > > matter how hard you try; you still will not respect it. > > > > ... > > > > > * Using welcoming and inclusive language > > > -* Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences > > > +* Being tolerant of differing viewpoints and experiences > > > * Gracefully accepting constructive criticism > > > * Focusing on what is best for the community > > > * Showing empathy towards other community members > > > > As mentioned in 5cdf230 (add a Code of Conduct document, 2019-09-24): > > > > This patch adapts the Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct. As opposed > > to writing our own from scratch, this uses common and well-accepted > > language, and strikes a good balance between illustrating expectations > > and avoiding a laundry list of behaviors. It's also the same document > > used by the Git for Windows project. > > > > It is highly recommended to stick to the widely-used and carefully > > crafted phrasing. > > I am also strongly in favor of keeping the commonly used wording. Do you care to explain why? > If you feel that wording is inappropriate, it would be better to have > the change adopted upstream. What is upstream? [1]? > > Specifically, "Being respectful" is different from "Have respect", which > > negates your argument for changing this word. We can only enforce what > > is evidenced by actual communication, not the internal lives of community > > members. > > > > I could just as easily argue that it is possible to be tolerant without > > being respectful. > > I agree with this. > > I should also point out that the situation at a university is different > than the situation on this list. A university is a large institution > which is dedicated to the pursuit of learning and in which one may find > a variety of ideas. Sometimes those ideas (both past and present) will > be offensive, but they are a part of learning more about the world. We > may tolerate those ideas as existing and being subject to critical > analysis, but ultimately reject them and have little respect for them. Yes. But ultimately it's about truth. > On the other hand, many people work on Git or other open source projects > as part of their job duties. Nobody has ever paid me a cent to work on git. Should the minority of open source contributors be held hostage because the majority are corporate contributors? > As such, this is a professional environment for many contributors. In > a professional environment, we need to be respectful of people who are > different than us. Yes, because somebody is paying you to behave in a certain way. If a company is paying you to smile to customers, you smile to customers. What about the rest of us? > We are aiming to have a common goal, which is to build a great version > control system, and to have a coherent group of people who are willing > to join together in that endeavor and best meet the needs of a > diverse, multicultural base of users. Indeed. And that's why we aim for the lowest common denominator. We don't say; the majority of us use bash, so either you use bash, or you are screwed. We say; POSIX covers almost all of us, so let's try to aim for POSIX. > The connotation I have of "tolerate" is "to suffer". I don't think your definition is right. Respect implies tolerance. If you respect X, you tolerate X. > In a healthy community, we try to minimize suffering due to others. I > am respectful of the fact that my colleagues may have different > religious or cultural beliefs than I do and I try to consider those > beliefs, such as considering their holidays when I ask someone to > switch an on-call shift or schedule a meeting. That can be a neutral > or positive experience for all involved; no suffering need occur. Therefore you are also tolerating those things. > So I think the original Code of Conduct is more consistent with > producing the positive, healthy environment we're looking for and best > meeting our users' needs, and as a result, I don't agree at all that it > should be changed. OK. I have an opinion about this, but I cannot express it without violating the code of conduct, so... I have three options. 1. I pretend (i.e. lie) saying that I respect that idea. 2. I express what I honestly think, but in theory I violate the code of conduct (like many people constantly do in this mailing list). 3. I keep my mouth shut. The reason so many intellectuals were against the word "respect" in University of Cambridge's freedom of speech policy is not because universities are special; it's because 1. and 3. are not conducive towards truth. As Stephen Fry put it: 'A demand for respect is like a demand for a laugh, or demands for love, loyalty and allegiance. They cannot be given if not felt' (you can only fake then). Tolerance is the lowest common denominator everyone should be aiming for. Cheers. [1] https://www.contributor-covenant.org/ -- Felipe Contreras