Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Dill]

>Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
>it stronger?
I'm sorry it wasn't my intent to split the group but make it more
diverse. There has been some good points made though. I was thinking
more along the lines that the forum would kind of be an offshoot of
what's happening in the blogosphere as a lot of Git discussion happens
and occurs separate of this list and I was thinking of some place they
could group together and chat. Of course here is a good spot but most
seem to know about this list but choose to talk outside of it. I was
just hoping that the forum would help those people. Dylan.

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Randal L. Schwartz]

>>>>> "Dill" == Dill  <sarpulhu@gmail.com> writes:

Dill> I'm sorry it wasn't my intent to split the group but make it more
Dill> diverse. There has been some good points made though. I was thinking
Dill> more along the lines that the forum would kind of be an offshoot of
Dill> what's happening in the blogosphere as a lot of Git discussion happens
Dill> and occurs separate of this list and I was thinking of some place they
Dill> could group together and chat. Of course here is a good spot but most
Dill> seem to know about this list but choose to talk outside of it. I was
Dill> just hoping that the forum would help those people. Dylan.

So, there are two separate issues here:

1) whether beginners should be in a different place from the developers

2) whether a beginners list should be a web forum or just another
   mailing list?

I won't speak to point 1, because I can see both sides of it, but I'll
be adamant about point 2:

   web forums suck

Please, if you're gonna do this, make it a mailing list.  Preferrably some
place that also has an NNTP feed, and a (gack) web view for those who prefer
that.

Why do people insist on reinventing email, badly?

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<merlyn@stonehenge.com> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Dill]

>I might be interested in this, but why the web forum format?  Why not
>just set up a git-users mailing list instead?  Archive it on the web if
>you want, but a mailing list is more suited to this kind of thing.. or
>better yet a newsgroup.  I usually read my mailing lists through gmane's
>NNTP server anyway (like this one).

I think some people just like the web forum format. It allows topics
to be easily sorted and you can even go back and edit posts to update
old posts. It just seems easier to use for some. The forum would allow
users to easily communicate and I think a lot of users not only look
at mailing lists but also seek out forums for help. Dylan.

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Miklos Vajna]

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On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
> out forums for help.

i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
this mailing list?

yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
mail client? :)

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Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Dill]

I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple
sources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a
forum is useful as well. Just different.
ohh and gitforum.net should work now
>  > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
>  > out forums for help.
>
>  i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
>  this mailing list?
>
>  yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
>  how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
>  mail client? :)
>

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 9/4/2008, a las 0:32, Dill escribió:

> I just think it's handy for variety. Doesn't hurt to have multiple
> sources of info. Yes someone could search this mailing list but a
> forum is useful as well. Just different.
> ohh and gitforum.net should work now

Just out of interest, who'll be receiving the income (if any) from the  
massive Google AdWords blocks at the top of every single page? (I'm  
guessing the providers of the free forum hosting.)

Wincent

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna <vmiklos@frugalware.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>  > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
>  > out forums for help.
>
>  i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
>  this mailing list?
>
>  yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
>  how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
>  mail client? :)

Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,
including ads ;-)

One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't
want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's
make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting
user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.

Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list -
most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a
forum.

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langhoff@gmail.com
 martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Dill]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff
<martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna <vmiklos@frugalware.org> wrote:
>  > On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  > I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
>  >  > out forums for help.
>  >
>  >  i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
>  >  this mailing list?
>  >
>  >  yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
>  >  how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
>  >  mail client? :)
>
>  Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,
>  including ads ;-)
>
>  One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't
>  want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's
>  make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting
>  user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.
>
>  Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list -
>  most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a
>  forum.
>
>  cheers,

I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to
create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will
probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites
will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.
Dylan.

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>  I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to
>  create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will
>  probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites
>  will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.

Do read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does
not work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps
split by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by "participant type".
Users should be guided towards this list --

cheers,



m
-- 
 martin.langhoff@gmail.com
 martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[John Goerzen]

On 2008-04-08, Martin Langhoff <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to
>>  create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will
>>  probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites
>>  will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.
>
> Do read the older discussions. Separating users from developers does
> not work well. Successful communities have mixed lists -- perhaps
> split by topic (linux-usb for example) but not by "participant type".
> Users should be guided towards this list --

I don't think this is right.

Debian has debian-user, debian-devel, and a host of other lists.  Some
are mixed (debian-kde), some aren't (debian-devel).  

debian-user is extremely high volume.  In fact, its volume normally
dwarfs that of debian-devel.  As a developer, it would be virtually
impossible to participate in development discussions without having to
spend an inordinate amount of time each day filtering out all the
discussions about KDE icons or whatnot.  

Not that these are *bad* discussions, or that developers never
subscribe to -user, but there are some developers (such as myself)
with limited time to devote to the project, and I feel my time is
better spent on development than on filtering through 1000 messages
each day that I'm not really interested in.

Moreover, as a *user* of some projects, I appreciate the distinction
as well.  I do not want to be a pest to the developers that are
donating their time to improve the project I benefit from when my
question could be perfectly well addressed by other users more
experienced than I.

As an example, I subscribe to the MythTV user list but not the
development list.  There are all sorts of discussions there --
everything from what TVs are best in different situations to
discussions over cable company encryption and setup of the MythTV web
interface.  I don't read most of them, but find some interesting.  At
the same time, I am not really interested in the latest SVN commits
for MythTV.  I upgrade my box maybe once a year and don't really care
about development internals, so as a user, this separation benefits me
too.

I don't see a -user list as a bad thing for a community the size of
Git.

Think about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature
(to the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people
using Git that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only
"mail client" at their disposal is Outlook.

-- John

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi,

On Fri, 11 Apr 2008, John Goerzen wrote:

> Think about it this way: once the Windows stuff for Git gets mature (to 
> the TortoiseGit level), there are going to be a lot of people using Git 
> that really *can't* operate a mail client because the only "mail client" 
> at their disposal is Outlook.

That's a scary thought.  I will stop all my work on git-cheetah.

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Jakub Narebski]

Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Martin Langhoff
> <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Miklos Vajna <vmiklos@frugalware.org> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
>>>> out forums for help.
>>>
>>> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
>>> this mailing list?
>>>
>>> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
>>> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
>>> mail client? :)
>>
>>  Specially with gmane and their ilk, which provide forum-like views,
>>  including ads ;-)
>>
>>  One thing we have had discussions about in the past is that we don't
>>  want to split users from developers. Developers are here, so let's
>>  make sure users are guided here too. The approach of not splitting
>>  user/dev lists is a very good one - even if controversial at times.
>>
>>  Make sure you read up on earlier discussions on a "git-users" list -
>>  most of the considerations that apply against it also apply against a
>>  forum.
> 
> I have but as git grows more popular so will the users who wish to
> create communities that can help each other. IMHO this list will
> probably tend to be about development and bugs etc while other sites
> will sprout up geared more towards users. Could be wrong though.

First, Git is and I think would be mainly developers tool.  Developers
should know how to use mailing list, either using mail client
(subscribing or not) or news reader (via GMane NNTP interface).

Second, there are many ways to read git mailing list (various mailing
list archives, NNTP interface, IIRC also RSS interface).

Third, we have #git channel on FreeNode for quick response (if
possible), we have Git Homepage (and maintainer welcomes patches; the
git homepage itself is maintained using git), we have Git Wiki where
one can find and put information (contribute!)...

Do we really need web forum?

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Poland
ShadeHawk on #git

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Junio C Hamano]

Miklos Vajna <vmiklos@frugalware.org> writes:

> On Tue, Apr 08, 2008 at 03:51:59PM -0600, Dill <sarpulhu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think a lot of users not only look at mailing lists but also seek
>> out forums for help.
>
> i never understood why this is good. maybe because there are no ads on
> this mailing list?
>
> yes, there are users who can't use a mail client so they use forums, but
> how one expects a user to learn git when he/she is not able to use a
> mail client? :)

That's Ok.  Not everybody has to subscribe to this mailing list to use
git.  Choice is fine.

I just have a suspicion that this community the "forum" announcement talks
about will be a completely different community from what is known as the
"Git community", whose definition is roughly "people who appear on this
mailing list and/or people who help others on #git at freenode".  The
people in "Git community" are generally helpful bunch of people when new
people have troubles, and any "Git community" will want to have people
like them --- otherwise the place will end up to be full of questions,
confusion, and wrong answers without much guidance and enlightenment.

But I suspect the people from existing "Git community" will not bother
visiting the new "forum" only to help out more new people.  There must be
something else that is compelling enough for them to visit there, for
example, "to hunt for ideas on what's lacking" (which, by the way, is the
reason I sometimes sit in #git channel, even though I am not an IRC
person).  But we already have the mailing list and #git for that, so
that's not what this new communication channel can offer us.  They need to
come up with something new to entice us.

In short, "forum" people need to build their own set of helpful experts if
they want to have "an excellent online reference ... to get help".  It
takes efforts to build a new community from scratch.  I am afraid that
they will be pretty much on their own.

But I have been wrong before.  Let's see how well the new "forum"
flourish (no, I do not forsee me visiting there).

ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Dill]

Hello, I'm trying to set up a Git forum at:

http://gitforum.freeforums.org/
(will purchase a git specific domain once I get the required
donations...I'm too poor to buy one myself)

The forum might also help move some newbies off this mailing list and
provide a place for the Git community to discuss stuff.
It is hoped that this forum will be the main site Git users will visit
when they want help and want to discuss Git topics with other Git
users. This forum will allow the Git community discuss with each other
and by doing so create an excellent online reference on the web for
others to read and get help. A place for Git users to help other Git
users. Donations are set up so the site can afford to buy a git
specific domain and pay for improvements to the site. Once I get
enough money I'll purchase gitforum.com or something. Any donations
will go to the improvement of the site. Thank you and I hope you enjoy
the forum.

I am also looking for moderators if anyones interested. Just PM me in the forum.
Dylan.

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Kenneth P. Turvey]

On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:32:59 -0600, Dill wrote:

> Hello, I'm trying to set up a Git forum at:
> 
> http://gitforum.freeforums.org/
> (will purchase a git specific domain once I get the required
> donations...I'm too poor to buy one myself)
> 
> The forum might also help move some newbies off this mailing list and
> provide a place for the Git community to discuss stuff. It is hoped that
> this forum will be the main site Git users will visit when they want
> help and want to discuss Git topics with other Git users. This forum
> will allow the Git community discuss with each other and by doing so
> create an excellent online reference on the web for others to read and
> get help. A place for Git users to help other Git users. Donations are
> set up so the site can afford to buy a git specific domain and pay for
> improvements to the site. Once I get enough money I'll purchase
> gitforum.com or something. Any donations will go to the improvement of
> the site. Thank you and I hope you enjoy the forum.
> 
> I am also looking for moderators if anyones interested. Just PM me in
> the forum. Dylan.

I might be interested in this, but why the web forum format?  Why not 
just set up a git-users mailing list instead?  Archive it on the web if 
you want, but a mailing list is more suited to this kind of thing.. or 
better yet a newsgroup.  I usually read my mailing lists through gmane's 
NNTP server anyway (like this one).  


-- 
Kenneth P. Turvey <kt-usenet@squeakydolphin.com>

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Patrick Aljord]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Kenneth P. Turvey
>  I might be interested in this, but why the web forum format?  Why not
>  just set up a git-users mailing list instead?

Done :)
here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
>  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users

Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
it stronger?


m
-- 
 martin.langhoff@gmail.com
 martin@laptop.org -- School Server Architect
 - ask interesting questions
 - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first
 - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Sverre Rabbelier]

On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:07 AM, Martin Langhoff
<martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users
>
>  Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
>  it stronger?

I agree that splitting it might not make it stronger but it might
increase the signal/noise ratio and make it less daunting for users to
ask a question. Even so, the "how to ask smart questions guide" [1]
advises users to try the 'user' list first if there is one available.
Then again, as mentioned earlier in the thread there are arguments to
be said in favor of just one list.

[1] http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Sverre Rabbelier

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Avery Pennarun]

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Martin Langhoff
<martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
>  >  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users
>
>  Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
>  it stronger?

One interesting point is that the current list might have *too much*
discussion.  I hesitated to join for quite a while in case I couldn't
keep up with the traffic (and yes, it's hard to keep up with the
traffic :))

>From that point of view, perhaps "making the community stronger" is
not the goal at all.  Perhaps a valid goal is to fracture the
community so that more people can participate in a community in the
first place.

Have fun,

Avery

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[DigitalPig]

"Avery Pennarun" <apenwarr@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Martin Langhoff
> <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
>>  >  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users
>>
>>  Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
>>  it stronger?
>
> One interesting point is that the current list might have *too much*
> discussion.  I hesitated to join for quite a while in case I couldn't
> keep up with the traffic (and yes, it's hard to keep up with the
> traffic :))
>
> From that point of view, perhaps "making the community stronger" is
> not the goal at all.  Perhaps a valid goal is to fracture the
> community so that more people can participate in a community in the
> first place.
>
> Have fun,
>
> Avery
I agree with that. For me, each day this group shows 200+ topics when I
opened Gnus. I think this could be divided into two groups, one for
git-user and the other for git-devel.

-- 
DigitalPig
E-mail: digitalpiglee AT gmail DOT com
ALL WE SEEN IS ILLUSION.

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Robert Haines]

On 9 Apr 2008, at 01:49, DigitalPig wrote:
> "Avery Pennarun" <apenwarr@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Martin Langhoff
>> <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord  
>>> <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users
>>>
>>>  Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not  
>>> make
>>>  it stronger?
>>
>> One interesting point is that the current list might have *too much*
>> discussion.  I hesitated to join for quite a while in case I couldn't
>> keep up with the traffic (and yes, it's hard to keep up with the
>> traffic :))
>>
>> From that point of view, perhaps "making the community stronger" is
>> not the goal at all.  Perhaps a valid goal is to fracture the
>> community so that more people can participate in a community in the
>> first place.
>>
>> Have fun,
>>
>> Avery
> I agree with that. For me, each day this group shows 200+ topics  
> when I
> opened Gnus. I think this could be divided into two groups, one for
> git-user and the other for git-devel.

This is missing the point slightly. If you ask a question on this  
list now it will be read by a lot of people who know git intimately  
and will help in very short order. These are the people who come to  
the list for other things (development discussions, patches, etc). If  
you split the group these people will not see your questions so they  
won't get answered. How does that help the community or make it  
stronger? It might well fracture the community into two groups: One  
that is now free to get even more development done, and one that  
never gets any of its questions answered!

That said, this list is very high traffic. If you want to reduce that  
why not filter out all mails with things like "[PATCH", "[BUG]", etc  
in the title and you'll just about have your git-users list!

Cheers,
Rob

Re: ANNOUNCE: Git Forum

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Avery Pennarun wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Martin Langhoff
> <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 8:01 PM, Patrick Aljord <patcito@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  >  here it is: http://groups.google.com/group/git-users
> >
> >  Is it clear to everyone here that splitting a community does not make
> >  it stronger?
> 
> One interesting point is that the current list might have *too much*
> discussion.  I hesitated to join for quite a while in case I couldn't
> keep up with the traffic (and yes, it's hard to keep up with the
> traffic :))

We actually encourage people to send email to the list without subscribing 
if they just have a particular question they'd like answered and don't 
want a ton of other mail.

	-Daniel
*This .sig left intentionally blank*