From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: David Kastrup Subject: Re: Should git-remote-hg/bzr be part of the core? Date: Mon, 12 May 2014 15:12:22 +0200 Message-ID: <87mwenuond.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> References: <537008f06ceb8_8e47492f89f@nysa.notmuch> <53709788.2050201@alum.mit.edu> <5370a47bee98c_139611a92fc29@nysa.notmuch> <5370B920.2060506@alum.mit.edu> <5370beb4b2483_168f13a72fc57@nysa.notmuch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cc: Michael Haggerty , git@vger.kernel.org, git-fc@googlegroups.com, Richard Hansen , Torsten =?iso-8859-1?Q?B=F6gershaus?= , Antoine Pelisse , Christophe Simonis , Dusty Phillips , Jeff King , John Keeping To: Felipe Contreras X-From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Mon May 12 15:12:31 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcvg-git-2@plane.gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.180.67]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Wjq1u-0000D9-1w for gcvg-git-2@plane.gmane.org; Mon, 12 May 2014 15:12:30 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1758246AbaELNM0 (ORCPT ); Mon, 12 May 2014 09:12:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([208.118.235.10]:45432 "EHLO fencepost.gnu.org" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1758212AbaELNMZ (ORCPT ); Mon, 12 May 2014 09:12:25 -0400 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44466 helo=lola) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Wjq1m-000794-F3; Mon, 12 May 2014 09:12:22 -0400 Received: by lola (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 22697E0F4F; Mon, 12 May 2014 15:12:22 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <5370beb4b2483_168f13a72fc57@nysa.notmuch> (Felipe Contreras's message of "Mon, 12 May 2014 07:29:40 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4.50 (gnu/linux) Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: Felipe Contreras writes: > Michael Haggerty wrote: >> On 05/12/2014 12:37 PM, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> > Michael Haggerty wrote: >> >> On 05/12/2014 01:34 AM, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> >>> Recently Junio said he was willing to hear the opinion of other people >> >>> regarding the move from contrib to the core[1]. This move is already >> >>> under way, but suddenly Junio changed his mind. >> >> >> >> I agree with Junio. There are good technical arguments for and against >> >> moving git-remote-hg out of contrib. >> > >> > Saying you agree with Junio is content-free. You have to say *why* you >> > agree. >> >> Actually, I don't have to, > > Then there's no point in reading what else you have to say. Whatever > reasons you might have to agree with Junio are known only to you, thus > your "agreement" is opaque and meaningless. Let me spell it out for you. Michael states "I agree with Junio. There are good technical arguments for and against moving git-remote-hg out of contrib." Since there are arguments for both sides, the decision boils down to a judgment call. Michael states that he condones the choice Junio made, based on the reasoning he gave. Does that mean that he examined the choice with equal detail and remembers every detail? No. In such a decision, both technical expertise as well as trust based on a past record factor in. >> > The quality of the subjproject has not been called into question, >> > stop taiting the discussion with red herrings. >> >> On the contrary. I just called the quality of the subproject into >> question, and I stated exactly which aspects of its quality I find to >> be inadequate in the text that you omitted from your response: > > I'll wait until somebody else calls into question the quality. > Preferably somebody who backs up his claims with evidence. The evidence for the toxicity of dealing with subprojects maintained by you is all over the mailing list. You are obviously blind to it yourself. Feel free to print out a few salient threads where you argue in favor of your points and ask someone you trust about his impression about how you come across. >> > Let's see how sincere you are in your sentiment. I'll reply to you >> > personally about the points that I consider to be red herrings and >> > ad hominem attacks so we don't taint the dicussion. If you don't >> > reply I'll know you were not being sincere. >> >> Jumping at your every demand is not a prerequisite for being sincere. > > I spent a lot of time writing that mail. Not sincere it is then. That kind of exchange is what you should show some of your personal friends and ask them whether it will likely lead to the desired understanding and ultimately reaction in the reader. Because that is what communication is about. Of course, one can try bypassing understanding and directly aim for a particular reaction: that is being manipulative. You are hardly in danger of being manipulative: that would require a basic understanding of people. So all you can really aim for is understanding: presenting your best case. Forget about "rhetorics" and the like: you suck at them, and a technical audience is easily annoyed by them even when they are employed well. And if a calm presentation does not lead others to the same conclusion that you would draw, deal with the consequences. Throwing tantrums will only bias people against you when you have the next case to present. -- David Kastrup