From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Avery Pennarun Subject: Re: Johannes misbehavior in the wiki, and a request for admin rights (was: wiki "abuse") Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:49:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <4C613DFC.40006@drmicha.warpmail.net> <20100810123349.GA3921@kytes> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Felipe Contreras , Ramkumar Ramachandra , Michael J Gruber , Johannes Schindelin , John Hawley , git , Daniele Segato , Valeo de Vries , "Amir E. Aharoni" To: Sverre Rabbelier X-From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Tue Aug 10 16:50:03 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcvg-git-2@lo.gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.180.67]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oiq9S-00087F-KS for gcvg-git-2@lo.gmane.org; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 16:50:02 +0200 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1757790Ab0HJOt4 (ORCPT ); Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:49:56 -0400 Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]:60543 "EHLO mail-ww0-f44.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1757762Ab0HJOty (ORCPT ); Tue, 10 Aug 2010 10:49:54 -0400 Received: by wwj40 with SMTP id 40so12957255wwj.1 for ; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:mime-version:received:in-reply-to :references:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=nrCPy5GbuWF9qIy3AwZ7QiTBI3m8XJRmxdGABqp9ExA=; b=SWr4fI+ObF3oFFyn+pa0YEHFXJzewzoIuWeTuHI7WXpX7dUZiMR7w1dQ3ElCOX9NJ5 sQPL9glC0+IFhK8ShbsrGtol3sYrpPWACe9WCDTywM3QCF7YeCTRFsIy2/tJIlglsh5I 5+c8XgnxcMg4nVYUUmBxsJHTEyHuN8xv8iBVc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; b=oecZkN/nFdm8BHnm4o03qudJqMKD6V0rmkTrs5OdcDyPj0XV9Npchhz6NavhXxs3pO yBd9GQFFqANxtxM8zAGL98C7cM1rhDHZY/4MPkc+Y2AMgc6KDcLvpQ8ggJYH0GhpNRLj EuLEayLNx7WmIPjN+E9tDE2LRtCyl7yE4v+Mc= Received: by 10.216.234.11 with SMTP id r11mr4055275weq.85.1281451793239; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.235.202 with HTTP; Tue, 10 Aug 2010 07:49:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Sverre Rabbelier wrote: > On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 09:16, Felipe Contreras wrote: >> I don't think it's a single incident: > > I do. Dscho has been keeping the old wiki clean for I don't know how > long. He has done the same for the new wiki. I am confident that those > other bans are for good reasons. I also find the subject line distasteful; there is no evidence of misbehaviour, and the subject line implies that there is. I'm hesitant to change the subject line and break the thread, however. However, the best advice I ever got about trust is: "Trust, but verify." Right now, whether or not Johannes has done the right thing has been called into question and is resulting in such an angry thread *only* because it's impossible to verify what has actually been done. When people can verify what happened - which in this case just means looking at the deleted pages - then trust is possible and easy. Most social problems come from the social environment, not individual people's actions. In this case, the social environment (wiki settings) have been configured explicitly to cast doubt on Johannes. It was an accident waiting to happen, and it finally happened. The proposal to add a second admin to the wiki - or at least make deleted pages visible to one other person - is not about Johannes. It's about creating a healthy social environment that allows people to relieve their suspicion before they let it get out of control. So far, all the counterarguments have been of the form, "But Johannes is a good guy, so we don't need to check on him." That's an invalid argument, because the real proposal (modulo the stupid subject line of this thread) is not about Johannes at all. Checking on him isn't about preventing him from being an idiot, it's about preventing everyone else from being an idiot. Which I think we can all agree at this point, would have been nice. Have fun, Avery