From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from silver.cherry.relay.mailchannels.net (silver.cherry.relay.mailchannels.net [23.83.223.166]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86B9D7C6F7 for ; Thu, 1 Feb 2024 17:46:48 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=pass smtp.client-ip=23.83.223.166 ARC-Seal:i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1706809613; cv=pass; b=rLSaK38PHAm4mGMEGIvP6tl2hUu4cFIXAQ5iXiMCJH/DBE8wt1zdmC5/u3dioDQLgUy3AGiwIVvTVeFZ7jvKpNSoEDjfkYKRZlnDFgmrCWOtp37PJ8aL9waamprlenAuG0hRmEzZd0JWmFB4Fjg/62D+1pCG5lhzw/1ww9bCCdk= ARC-Message-Signature:i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1706809613; c=relaxed/simple; bh=2ULry9k5qvLgXtafNDywBYEnsnjJa2R1oey5JxMhoso=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=F6NvPHyvZmevpkOo254WpZRq1SX1ub32ZdPRCm9ProshOO2wA/xXV2iduWfs7VrfuFNJMCtRYE82rG8xYBnQTWwE4Xse8hmR1X4XCqPY204LblcMckEyuwiuIH/RhCEQCJx73ppiUYMW7gvtp1Ex2pMkNUJS1Dtjd+VnaW1d17Y= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=2; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=cryptonector.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cryptonector.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com header.i=@cryptonector.com header.b=D4CV6uXm; arc=pass smtp.client-ip=23.83.223.166 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=cryptonector.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=cryptonector.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=cryptonector.com header.i=@cryptonector.com header.b="D4CV6uXm" X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com Received: from relay.mailchannels.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FCEF903D5C; Thu, 1 Feb 2024 17:46:42 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a275.dreamhost.com (unknown [127.0.0.6]) (Authenticated sender: dreamhost) by relay.mailchannels.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1C1E5903DC2; Thu, 1 Feb 2024 17:46:42 +0000 (UTC) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=arc-2022; d=mailchannels.net; t=1706809602; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=fL4UyqR17K7N9IcOry+P2nAWRZoCVv8oayBH/jlZuC8BIy/mNj3tc82+6XoX4J7SUp7axu 31Gz7xKfScjRKnk+K9EtvrDH1xz9UUrQplqTZJxcvLIqz0WfCcqunTdFxHIJ5L/4mAOCTN obWC06oz3fQmps7de0dBC02wqPMMmHNFyDqmWOmgC8gPOAONvYQarRfW3OUqBVWiQHu6BM QOajLahmCf41ceHnLNjAKU1O6v6TVOxEwSwzmsxEumMxvB7vnbjpMLry9e+cXzVJkXQtd2 FKakJB6E7+t8S7e1I5YxY7z+9nBIaUV4jqtbLynVK12f0ghnxV6E6VRLkhReSg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mailchannels.net; s=arc-2022; t=1706809602; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:dkim-signature; bh=Mh5AmsyVTC3ffVCe3yAp/2s5vqubUb2Ej58qY/3ZrBo=; b=eHBYxxlB+N6v/zrMAVWAYHHbHJjnkaclPseBULDaYkajreUVkLQ+yJUwLX8M+Ji3/Tvzkk 1c0j83UBmbjrkaJzMNd//oE2S2jVXzWx6oAqt9oN1b20SBQXDEL/RyWe/qjjhbBQDextsO muvduGmAD2J/IIVlLvXcJIXDFCkpE7mRa2+JGGG+QVkVDHG4ClwaaA0KS377aJTWD+2iGJ 4OUrZy9grlftThbKqnMnUPOLwG04zghxeH04P26DkKJ0H6bjIdCenfGTAS78gyDo2DcJIf h6eU/pPnYLHOPfMTILUaCK0r3vQkCPLuXbCH3N+FJ90YyEZpXbwKahRNTMpyyA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; rspamd-6bdc45795d-7j9w4; auth=pass smtp.auth=dreamhost smtp.mailfrom=nico@cryptonector.com X-Sender-Id: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MC-Relay: Neutral X-MailChannels-SenderId: dreamhost|x-authsender|nico@cryptonector.com X-MailChannels-Auth-Id: dreamhost X-Whimsical-Little: 2cdc777716c90a9f_1706809602357_2862307471 X-MC-Loop-Signature: 1706809602357:3048038301 X-MC-Ingress-Time: 1706809602357 Received: from pdx1-sub0-mail-a275.dreamhost.com (pop.dreamhost.com [64.90.62.162]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by 100.122.38.211 (trex/6.9.2); Thu, 01 Feb 2024 17:46:42 +0000 Received: from ubby (075-081-095-064.res.spectrum.com [75.81.95.64]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: nico@cryptonector.com) by pdx1-sub0-mail-a275.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4TQmYY2ntQz52; Thu, 1 Feb 2024 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cryptonector.com; s=dreamhost; t=1706809601; bh=Mh5AmsyVTC3ffVCe3yAp/2s5vqubUb2Ej58qY/3ZrBo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Content-Type; b=D4CV6uXmw8fyzzFMk/CdYglbSfK2+E6cbBC0irJWeUIzGKubGb+YdL8REGU0s/dWa NDh2IoF1QTdqod5LsbXZqIb0HMUtbJIhlvHZO4xrWCXK56PShajoG0Cm7CRUEGgQhC G45S8RROypY2x06pR6JzVZ8OhrZ8/O7b0oiQQp1c2Gn8BGYTSCzF2t4NEyjKJNsTBR jWPyOaUeQBEUh0V00f1i4gGBCpbiBaRtiXcYiF68rp0JouJ/Z5fvVNsWbN3Ya3W7nd aSra1Jd8hy1ErL7QjXgsKAAekkeTnxdorwve4k0Sdaf4x8EOmqnDrs1asPSGabA2xO T+ASM/05KF3PA== Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2024 11:46:39 -0600 From: Nico Williams To: Konstantin Ryabitsev Cc: Hans Meiser , "git@vger.kernel.org" Subject: Re: Migrate away from vger to GitHub or (on-premise) GitLab? Message-ID: References: <20240201-primitive-aardwark-of-contentment-aaabb9@lemur> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240201-primitive-aardwark-of-contentment-aaabb9@lemur> On Thu, Feb 01, 2024 at 10:39:04AM -0500, Konstantin Ryabitsev wrote: > [excellent discussion of e-mail workflows elided] It would surely help if the e-mail interfaces of forges were not terrible. But they really have to be as good as the mailing list approach. I envision that the "issues" and "PRs" could be webmail-ish thread trackers that auto-close on prolonged silence. One could open issues/ PRs by e-mail, close them by e-mail, etc., all e-mails going to the same [forge-run?] list address, but still have a forge-style view of a PR's commits, still have a forge-style code review web UI (with all comments going to e-mail too, and with e-mail being first-class, not an afterthought), still have a CI checks UI, and still have a big rebase-and-merge button for maintainers. I.e., forge e-mail UI as first-class equivalent of forge web UI. The forges tend to be run by people who prioritize users who are not heavy e-mail workflow devs. It makes economic sense, given how few users demand e-mail as a first-class forge UI. Still, it would be quite awesome if some forge did this. > - How to avoid a vendor lock-in? [...] Assuming some forge exists with an e-mail UI on the same footing as its web UI, and also good enough for kernel/git/... devs, you could maintain mirrors on all the other forges, naturally, and always fallback on e-mail only if the primary forge disappears or becomes too expensive. > - How to avoid centralization and single points of failure? [...] It's all forks, all the time. It'd be good if the kernel maintainers maintained non-forge git servers as mirror/staging/primary repos. > - How to avoid alienating these hundreds of key maintainers who are now > extremely proficient at their query-based workflows? [...] The only answer is to stick to the current workflow until some forge provide an equivalently first-class e-mail interface. New participants just have to get used to it. IMO. Nico --