From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Linus Torvalds Subject: Re: git on MacOSX and files with decomposed utf-8 file names Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:16:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <478E1FED.5010801@web.de> <65026F2B-5CE8-4238-A9AB-D3545D336B41@sb.org> <200801162251.54219.jnareb@gmail.com> <1574A90A-8C45-46AD-9402-34AE6F582B3F@sb.org> <7652B11D-9B9F-45EA-9465-8294B701FE7C@sb.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: Jakub Narebski , Johannes Schindelin , Mark Junker , git@vger.kernel.org To: Kevin Ballard X-From: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Thu Jan 17 02:17:24 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: gcvg-git-2@gmane.org Received: from vger.kernel.org ([209.132.176.167]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JFJNj-0000YS-78 for gcvg-git-2@gmane.org; Thu, 17 Jan 2008 02:17:23 +0100 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752190AbYAQBQz (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:16:55 -0500 Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org id S1752268AbYAQBQz (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:16:55 -0500 Received: from smtp2.linux-foundation.org ([207.189.120.14]:56216 "EHLO smtp2.linux-foundation.org" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1750931AbYAQBQx (ORCPT ); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 20:16:53 -0500 Received: from imap1.linux-foundation.org (imap1.linux-foundation.org [207.189.120.55]) by smtp2.linux-foundation.org (8.13.5.20060308/8.13.5/Debian-3ubuntu1.1) with ESMTP id m0H1GkxZ003800 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:16:47 -0800 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by imap1.linux-foundation.org (8.13.5.20060308/8.13.5/Debian-3ubuntu1.1) with ESMTP id m0H1GjOs002153; Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:16:45 -0800 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Alpine 1.00 (LFD 882 2007-12-20) X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-2.715 required=5 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.0-osdl_revision__1.47__ X-MIMEDefang-Filter: lf$Revision: 1.188 $ X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.53 on 207.189.120.14 Sender: git-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org Archived-At: On Wed, 16 Jan 2008, Kevin Ballard wrote: > > I'm speaking as a user, and as such, I shouldn't even have to know that it's > possible to write the same character in multiple different ways. The thing is, you seem to argue that what OS X does helps you as the user. But you are arguing based on incorrect assumptions. First off, we've had years and years and years of usage of non-corrupting filesystems (pretty much every UNIX OS around since day 1, and many other OS's too), and it's simply not true that it's a problem. You see the filename in the file dialog, and you open it, and you're done. OS X isn't any "easier" in this regard. In fact, this whole thread comes from the fact that the OS X choice that you *think* is easier, is in fact not easier at all. It's not easier for the user, it's not easier for the application programmer, and the really sad part is that it's very much *not* easier for OS X itself either (ie they had to literally write extra code with nasty tables to do it, and it really does hurt them in performance and complexity). And _that_ is why the OS X situation is so sad. Apple literally added extra code to make things slower and more complex *and* harder to use reliably. Does it show up in normal behaviour? Of course not. You'd probably never see it in real life outside of test-suites. People simply don't even tend to use filenames outside of US-ASCII, and when they do use them, input methods really *do* tend to do the normalization for you. But when it comes to automation (which is what computers are all about), the OS X choice is literally the wrong one. And there's no _upside_. It's all downside. Which is why it's so stupid. I bet it only exists because OS X engineers didn't really even think about it, and they just assumed that "normalization is helpful". They took your stance - thinking it was worth it, without ever really thinking it through. Linus