git push (mis ?)behavior

git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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  There is a behavior of git-push that is the most annoying thing while
working with a central-repository: `git push` without any arguments
insists on pushing every local refspec that match one in origin.

  While it's perfectly correct when you push to a public repository (you
do that seldom, and usually only after having prepared it with care),
it's not true for the central-repository layout. At work, I often have
this situation:

  [I'm in the devel branch, would be next for git e.g.]
  ... hack ... hack ... *OMG* what a nasty bug...
  $ git stash
  $ git checkout <stable branch>
  .. fix nasty bug ..
  $ git commit
  $ git push # so that co-workers have the fix asap
  $ git checkout <devel branch>
  $ git stash apply
  ... OOOOH NOES it pushed my WIP in my devel branch as well ...

  There has been (and still is atm) a quite heated discussion on IRC
about that. Some arguments were that pull/push were opposite words in
English, but weren't doing an opposite thing in git, which led to some
fight. But that's not close to the point IMHO.

  The real question is "what does users intend when they `git push`". In
a git/kernel/... like model, you don't think the same than in a
svn/cvs-like model. I mean, Junio or Linus likely don't push a lot to
their public repository. It happens probably a couple of time per day.
While I'm at work, it happens up way more frequentely, and I then want
to lazily type `git push` and not `git push origin <somebranch>`. it's
too long.

  I'm not sure what we can do about it, but I'm pretty sure it bites a
lot of people out there. For now I use this alias in my .gitconfig:

  p=!git-push origin `git-symbolic-ref HEAD`

but still, it feels really wrong to me. Not to mention that git-push(1)
says that it has a --all option that in fact is the current default
behavior, hence sounds pretty useless.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 27/9/2007, a las 15:04, Pierre Habouzit escribió:

>   There is a behavior of git-push that is the most annoying thing  
> while
> working with a central-repository: `git push` without any arguments
> insists on pushing every local refspec that match one in origin.

I kind of agree. Without reading the git-push man page I would  
intuitively expect "git push" with no arguments to push only the  
branch I currently have checked out, and "git push --all" to push all.

>   I'm not sure what we can do about it, but I'm pretty sure it bites a
> lot of people out there. For now I use this alias in my .gitconfig:
>
>   p=!git-push origin `git-symbolic-ref HEAD`

Ah, nice alias! Thanks for sharing it.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Benoit SIGOURE]

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On Sep 27, 2007, at 3:30 PM, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:

> El 27/9/2007, a las 15:04, Pierre Habouzit escribió:
>
>>   There is a behavior of git-push that is the most annoying thing  
>> while
>> working with a central-repository: `git push` without any arguments
>> insists on pushing every local refspec that match one in origin.
>
> I kind of agree. Without reading the git-push man page I would  
> intuitively expect "git push" with no arguments to push only the  
> branch I currently have checked out, and "git push --all" to push all.

Same thing here, got bitten the same way.

-- 
Benoit Sigoure aka Tsuna
EPITA Research and Development Laboratory



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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Junio C Hamano]

Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> writes:

> The real question is "what does users intend when they `git push`". In
> a git/kernel/... like model, you don't think the same than in a
> svn/cvs-like model. I mean, Junio or Linus likely don't push a lot to
> their public repository. It happens probably a couple of time per day.
> While I'm at work, it happens up way more frequentely, and I then want
> to lazily type `git push` and not `git push origin <somebranch>`. it's
> too long.
>
>   I'm not sure what we can do about it, but I'm pretty sure it bites a
> lot of people out there. For now I use this alias in my .gitconfig:
>
>   p=!git-push origin `git-symbolic-ref HEAD`
>
> but still, it feels really wrong to me. Not to mention that git-push(1)
> says that it has a --all option that in fact is the current default
> behavior, hence sounds pretty useless.

The default is not --all but "matching branches", iow, what you
have never published yet never goes out.

Having said that, I would agree that in some workflows "I am on
this branch and I would want to push only this branch" would be
the norm, and the norm even be "and this branch 'foo' is called
identically as 'foo' at the remote site as well".

Don't worry about me when discussing to change the default.
Myself, I also often push only one or two branches.  A typical
workflow for me while working on git.git is to prepare 'maint'
(if there are any changes) and 'master', push them (without
pushing 'next' and 'pu') to a private "build it to make sure"
repository I have at a k.org machine which runs RH, make sure
they are Ok, and then continue working on integrating 'next' and
'pu'.  At the end of the day, I push out all four integration
branches to a separate "publish" area, but even this one, I rely
on the explicit configuration (remote.<name>.push) to push out
only the integration branches and not other branches.

We would also want to have --mirror option that acts like --all
but removes the refs from the remote that do not exist anymore,
so we will be talking about updating "git push" in the near
future anyway.

So what's the desired semantics?

The current semantics is:

   "git push" says "you do not say to which repository?" and
   consults "branch.<current>.remote" but defaults to 'origin'
   if unconfigured.  

   "git push <name>" (or using the <name> determined as above)
   says "you do not say which branches?" and consults
   "remote.<name>.push" to find branches to push out, but
   defaults to 'matching branches' if unconfigured.

What you would want to change is the fallback behaviour for
unconfigured "remote.<name>.push".  I think it is sensible to
have an option to make it push only the current branch.  I am
not sure if it is sensible to make that the default (and
introduce --matching option to get the current behaviour) at
this point in 1.5.X series, but from the general usability point
of view, I would not object to demote 'matching' to optional and
make 'current only' the default in 1.6.X or later.

Thoughts?

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 07:22:24PM +0000, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> I am not sure if it is sensible to make that the default (and
> introduce --matching option to get the current behaviour) at this
> point in 1.5.X series, but from the general usability point of view, I
> would not object to demote 'matching' to optional and make 'current
> only' the default in 1.6.X or later.

  Sounds like a plan to me.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Sep 27, 2007, at 9:22 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:

>
> So what's the desired semantics?
>
> The current semantics is:
>
>    "git push" says "you do not say to which repository?" and
>    consults "branch.<current>.remote" but defaults to 'origin'
>    if unconfigured.
>
>    "git push <name>" (or using the <name> determined as above)
>    says "you do not say which branches?" and consults
>    "remote.<name>.push" to find branches to push out, but
>    defaults to 'matching branches' if unconfigured.
>
> What you would want to change is the fallback behaviour for
> unconfigured "remote.<name>.push".  I think it is sensible to
> have an option to make it push only the current branch.

I'm not sure that changing the fallback behaviour for unconfigured
"remote.<name>.push" is sufficient.

When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
"git push" would only push the current branch, which could be pushed
to 0 or more branches on the remote side. If no "remote.<name>.push"
contains the current branch as a local ref nothing would happen
(maybe a warning?). If several "remote.<name>.push" have the current
branch as the local ref the branch would be pushed to several
remote branches. But other branches than the current branch
would _never_ be pushed if no argument is given to 'git push'.

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 06:52:47AM +0000, Steffen Prohaska wrote:
> 
> On Sep 27, 2007, at 9:22 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> 
> >
> >So what's the desired semantics?
> >
> >The current semantics is:
> >
> >   "git push" says "you do not say to which repository?" and
> >   consults "branch.<current>.remote" but defaults to 'origin'
> >   if unconfigured.
> >
> >   "git push <name>" (or using the <name> determined as above)
> >   says "you do not say which branches?" and consults
> >   "remote.<name>.push" to find branches to push out, but
> >   defaults to 'matching branches' if unconfigured.
> >
> >What you would want to change is the fallback behaviour for
> >unconfigured "remote.<name>.push".  I think it is sensible to
> >have an option to make it push only the current branch.
> 
> I'm not sure that changing the fallback behaviour for unconfigured
> "remote.<name>.push" is sufficient.
> 
> When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
> choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
> the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
> "git push" would only push the current branch, which could be pushed
> to 0 or more branches on the remote side. If no "remote.<name>.push"
> contains the current branch as a local ref nothing would happen
> (maybe a warning?). If several "remote.<name>.push" have the current
> branch as the local ref the branch would be pushed to several
> remote branches. But other branches than the current branch
> would _never_ be pushed if no argument is given to 'git push'.

  I'm not really sure that it makes sense, as by default, git push won't
create a new remote ref. So unless you have a branch that matches some
remote ref, but that you never want to push, even when on it and typing
git push... there is nothing that could happen by mistake.

  So if you don't want to push such a branch, ever, then you should IMHO
not name it in a way that it matches a refspec in the first place, and
be safe.

  So I do not believe we need that extra complexity.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Sep 28, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Pierre Habouzit wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 06:52:47AM +0000, Steffen Prohaska wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 27, 2007, at 9:22 PM, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So what's the desired semantics?
>>>
>>> The current semantics is:
>>>
>>>   "git push" says "you do not say to which repository?" and
>>>   consults "branch.<current>.remote" but defaults to 'origin'
>>>   if unconfigured.
>>>
>>>   "git push <name>" (or using the <name> determined as above)
>>>   says "you do not say which branches?" and consults
>>>   "remote.<name>.push" to find branches to push out, but
>>>   defaults to 'matching branches' if unconfigured.
>>>
>>> What you would want to change is the fallback behaviour for
>>> unconfigured "remote.<name>.push".  I think it is sensible to
>>> have an option to make it push only the current branch.
>>
>> I'm not sure that changing the fallback behaviour for unconfigured
>> "remote.<name>.push" is sufficient.
>>
>> When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
>> choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
>> the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
>> "git push" would only push the current branch, which could be pushed
>> to 0 or more branches on the remote side. If no "remote.<name>.push"
>> contains the current branch as a local ref nothing would happen
>> (maybe a warning?). If several "remote.<name>.push" have the current
>> branch as the local ref the branch would be pushed to several
>> remote branches. But other branches than the current branch
>> would _never_ be pushed if no argument is given to 'git push'.
>
>   I'm not really sure that it makes sense, as by default, git push  
> won't
> create a new remote ref. So unless you have a branch that matches some
> remote ref, but that you never want to push, even when on it and  
> typing
> git push... there is nothing that could happen by mistake.
>
>   So if you don't want to push such a branch, ever, then you should  
> IMHO
> not name it in a way that it matches a refspec in the first place, and
> be safe.

I could have a couple of local branches typically pushed to a couple of
remote branches. "git push origin" would update all remote refs.

But I may also be interested to push only the current branch I'm working
on. I may also have some pending fixes on another branch that should not
be pushed now. Currently I need to do "git push origin  
<current>:<someremote>".

Let me put it as a question: How can I push changes from the current
branch to all remote refs it is configured to push to via  
"remote.<name>.push"
without pushing anything else at the same time?

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Junio C Hamano]

Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:

> On Sep 28, 2007, at 8:58 AM, Pierre Habouzit wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 06:52:47AM +0000, Steffen Prohaska wrote:
>
> But I may also be interested to push only the current branch I'm working
> on. I may also have some pending fixes on another branch that should not
> be pushed now. Currently I need to do "git push origin
> <current>:<someremote>".

Sounds sensible.

> Let me put it as a question: How can I push changes from the current
> branch to all remote refs it is configured to push to via
> "remote.<name>.push"
> without pushing anything else at the same time?

Sorry, but I do not get you.  Are you talking about pushing your
'frotz' into more than one branches 'nitfol' and 'xyzzy' at the
same remote 'origin' without having to say

	$ git push origin frotz:nitfol frotz:xyzzy

???

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Sep 28, 2007, at 11:44 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:

>> Let me put it as a question: How can I push changes from the current
>> branch to all remote refs it is configured to push to via
>> "remote.<name>.push"
>> without pushing anything else at the same time?
>
> Sorry, but I do not get you.  Are you talking about pushing your
> 'frotz' into more than one branches 'nitfol' and 'xyzzy' at the
> same remote 'origin' without having to say
>
> 	$ git push origin frotz:nitfol frotz:xyzzy
>
> ???

Yes. Doesn't sound like a very reasonable workflow. But you can do
it with "remote.<name>.push". So I think "git push" should somehow
deal with it in a sensible way.

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Junio C Hamano]

Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:

> When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
> choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
> the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.

That would break the existing setup so it would not fly as a
default, although it could be added as an option.

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Sep 28, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:
>
>> When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
>> choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
>> the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
>
> That would break the existing setup so it would not fly as a
> default, although it could be added as an option.

Do you mean 'not now' or never, i.e. not in git 1.6?

What does 'break the existing setup' means? Pushing all branches
that are configured in "remote.<name>.push" could be done by
"git push <name>". This would be in the line with the idea that
"git push" should only operate on the current branch and operations
involving other local refs should be explicitly stated.

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi,

On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Steffen Prohaska wrote:

> On Sep 28, 2007, at 9:07 AM, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> 
> > Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:
> > 
> > > When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
> > > choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
> > > the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
> > 
> > That would break the existing setup so it would not fly as a
> > default, although it could be added as an option.
> 
> Do you mean 'not now' or never, i.e. not in git 1.6?

If it changes behaviour, and there might be people relying on the old 
behaviour, we have to deprecate the old behaviour first.  With a nice 
warning so that people have a chance to adapt their setups.  And then, 
after a decent grace period, we can change it.

> What does 'break the existing setup' means? Pushing all branches that 
> are configured in "remote.<name>.push" could be done by "git push 
> <name>". This would be in the line with the idea that "git push" should 
> only operate on the current branch and operations involving other local 
> refs should be explicitly stated.

People have scripts and aliases to help them go through the day.  If one 
of those scripts or aliases stop working, that is called "break the 
existing setup".  ;-)

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Jan Hudec]

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On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 00:07:27 -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:
> 
> > When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
> > choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
> > the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.

I would like this for another reason and maybe in slightly different way.
Basically I would have configured something along the lines:
    [remote "origin"]
    push = refs/heads/*:refs/heads/jahu/*
and would want to choose, via option, whether I want to push all the branches
or just the current one, but in any case with the renaming specified.

The idea behind this is to have a shared repository, but not shared branches.
Everybody would have a subdirectory in refs/heads where he could push
anything that the others should see and than somebody else (either designated
integrator, or just anybody different) would do a quick review and merge it
into master.

Now I could of course push out everything, but usually I'd want to push
exactly the current branch, renaming it by the rule given, whether it already
existed in origin or not. Than there can be eg. a post-receive hook notifying
the integrator that there is something for review.

> That would break the existing setup so it would not fly as a
> default, although it could be added as an option.

We can have an option and/or we can have some new parameter in .git/config.
Maybe:
    push = refs/heads/*:refs/heads/jahu/*
would mean to push always (ie. everything under refs/heads) and eg.:
    push = !refs/heads/*:refs/heads/jahu/*
would mean to push just current branch if it matches. Mixed setups would be
possible:
    push = refs/heads/*:refs/heads/jahu/* !master:master !next:next
would mean push everything to jahu/ and if current is master, push it to
master, or if current is next, push it to next.

-- 
						 Jan 'Bulb' Hudec <bulb@ucw.cz>

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Oct 9, 2007, at 7:05 AM, Jan Hudec wrote:

> On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 00:07:27 -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:
>> Steffen Prohaska <prohaska@zib.de> writes:
>>
>>> When "remote.<name>.push" is set I'd expect "git push" to
>>> choose only the 'right' remote.<name>.push lines, that is
>>> the lines that have the current branch as the local ref.
>
> I would like this for another reason and maybe in slightly  
> different way.
> Basically I would have configured something along the lines:
>     [remote "origin"]
>     push = refs/heads/*:refs/heads/jahu/*
> and would want to choose, via option, whether I want to push all  
> the branches
> or just the current one, but in any case with the renaming specified.
>
> The idea behind this is to have a shared repository, but not shared  
> branches.
> Everybody would have a subdirectory in refs/heads where he could push
> anything that the others should see and than somebody else (either  
> designated
> integrator, or just anybody different) would do a quick review and  
> merge it
> into master.
>
> Now I could of course push out everything, but usually I'd want to  
> push
> exactly the current branch, renaming it by the rule given, whether  
> it already
> existed in origin or not. Than there can be eg. a post-receive hook  
> notifying
> the integrator that there is something for review.

I had a similar scenario in mind. So a more general question is the  
following:

Git well supports the clone from read-only and push to private repo  
scheme.
In this case all repositories you're pushing to are by definition _your_
repositories. The only question left is, which subset of your  
branches are
pushed. But there's no need for renaming during push.

Now the question is, what is a sensible workflow on a shared repository?

One option is to use some kind of private 'namespace' scheme. For  
example
developers should push their topics to a branch prefixed with their  
name,
or to a 'subdirectory' ref/heads/needsreview/*.

This workflow may require to 'rename' branches during push. So how  
can this
be supported by git?  Supporting only renames that add a prefix, as  
suggested
by Jan, may be reasonable restriction.

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 27/9/2007, a las 21:22, Junio C Hamano escribió:

> What you would want to change is the fallback behaviour for
> unconfigured "remote.<name>.push".  I think it is sensible to
> have an option to make it push only the current branch.  I am
> not sure if it is sensible to make that the default (and
> introduce --matching option to get the current behaviour) at
> this point in 1.5.X series, but from the general usability point
> of view, I would not object to demote 'matching' to optional and
> make 'current only' the default in 1.6.X or later.
>
> Thoughts?

I'd certainly welcome this change for two reasons:

1. It makes the behaviour more conservative (that is, harder to do  
something destructive and irreversible) by using the more limited  
scope by default. If you make a mistake and see that you really meant  
to push all matching branches then you can just do the push again  
with that switch; compare that to the situation now where if you  
accidentally push all matching branches when you only wanted to push  
the current branch then there's no way for you to "unpush".

2. Mental baggage from working with SVK (where "push" means merge  
changes back to the branch the current branch previously branched  
from, and "pull" means merge changes into the current branch from the  
branch you previously branched from). At least for me and I suspect  
for many others the "current only" default in 1.6 or latter would be  
less "surprising" than the current behaviour can be.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Miles Bader]

Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> writes:
> I think it is sensible to have an option to make it push only the
> current branch.  I am not sure if it is sensible to make that the
> default.

I really like the current default, it matches my mental model well:  I
generally use "push" to mean "synchronize the remote repository with my
current one"; if multiple branches have changed, I want those changes
propagated too.

I think changing it would be a bad idea, it just seems a pointlessly
incompatible change.  The reasons I've seen offered on this thread for
changing the default seem pretty weak, e.g., "it's more conservative"
(but more annoying), and "it's more like SVK" (who cares?).

-Miles
-- 
Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to lose   --Janis Joplin

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Junio C Hamano]

Miles Bader <miles.bader@necel.com> writes:

> Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> writes:
>> I think it is sensible to have an option to make it push only the
>> current branch.  I am not sure if it is sensible to make that the
>> default.
>
> I really like the current default, it matches my mental model well:  I
> generally use "push" to mean "synchronize the remote repository with my
> current one"; if multiple branches have changed, I want those changes
> propagated too.
>
> I think changing it would be a bad idea, it just seems a pointlessly
> incompatible change.  The reasons I've seen offered on this thread for
> changing the default seem pretty weak, e.g., "it's more conservative"
> (but more annoying), and "it's more like SVK" (who cares?).

Usually we hear people complain louder on the list.

People who are happy with the existing behaviour tend to be
quiet, and we should be really careful not to break things for
silent majority.

I try to stay fairly conservative, often more conservative than
what I would like to be myself, for this exact reason.

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 3/10/2007, a las 7:10, Miles Bader escribió:

> Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> writes:
>> I think it is sensible to have an option to make it push only the
>> current branch.  I am not sure if it is sensible to make that the
>> default.
>
> I really like the current default, it matches my mental model well:  I
> generally use "push" to mean "synchronize the remote repository  
> with my
> current one"; if multiple branches have changed, I want those changes
> propagated too.
>
> I think changing it would be a bad idea, it just seems a pointlessly
> incompatible change.  The reasons I've seen offered on this thread for
> changing the default seem pretty weak, e.g., "it's more conservative"
> (but more annoying)

It could be more annoying for some, yet a life saver for others. So  
before changing the default obviously we would need to get a clear  
idea of whether or not the majority would approve of such a move.  
Such differences of opinion would be easily accommodated if the  
default behaviour were made configurable. That way everyone can have  
the behaviour they want.

Cheers,
Wincent

PS. I'm the one who mentioned SVK, but I didn't offer it as a reason  
to justify the change (I agree, more than "weak" it's not really any  
reason at all); I  just mentioned to indicate why it is that the  
current behaviour caught me off guard.

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Miles Bader]

Wincent Colaiuta <win@wincent.com> writes:
> Such differences of opinion would be easily accommodated if the  
> default behaviour were made configurable. That way everyone can have  
> the behaviour they want.

Indeed.

-Miles

-- 
"Suppose we've chosen the wrong god. Every time we go to church we're
just making him madder and madder." -- Homer Simpson

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 05:10:09AM +0000, Miles Bader wrote:
> Junio C Hamano <gitster@pobox.com> writes:
> > I think it is sensible to have an option to make it push only the
> > current branch.  I am not sure if it is sensible to make that the
> > default.
> 
> I really like the current default, it matches my mental model well:  I
> generally use "push" to mean "synchronize the remote repository with my
> current one"; if multiple branches have changed, I want those changes
> propagated too.

  I understand that … and I know some people rely on the current
behavior…

> I think changing it would be a bad idea, it just seems a pointlessly
> incompatible change.

  There definitely is a point: with the current behaviour you sometimes
end up pushing more than what you meant, with sometimes WIP that you
intend to rebase, and it hurts. Git porcelains should help you avoid to
shoot yourself in the foot, hence I think that (especially to git
newcomers), the current default _is_ dangerous.

  Though, OTOH, I believe that git push <remote> could keep the current
behavior. I'm also okay with the fact that git push could be
configurable in that regard.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Miles Bader]

Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> writes:
>   There definitely is a point: with the current behaviour you sometimes
> end up pushing more than what you meant, with sometimes WIP that you
> intend to rebase, and it hurts. Git porcelains should help you avoid to
> shoot yourself in the foot, hence I think that (especially to git
> newcomers), the current default _is_ dangerous.

What's "dangerous" for newbies, often ends up being what doesn't
correspond with their mental model.  I think the current default
behavior without any <refspec> specified corresponds well to the
operation of many other git commands (and unix command) in similar
circumstances:  If you don't specify something to operate on, it
essentially uses a wild card and operates on "every reasonable thing"
(e.g., consider "git commit FILE" versus "git commit").

Even if the default were changed, it could very well end up causing many
problems because it _didn't_ push as many heads as the user thought it
would (I don't think I'm the only one that might expect the default
action to be "push everything").  When I was a git newbie, I sometimes
got into situations where I screwed something up because heads I thought
had been pushed to another system actually hadn't been.

To the extent that a command _is_ "dangerous", there's always a tradeoff
between convenience and "danger".  Some systems (e.g. those aimed at
newbies) might have as a goal to do the absolute minimum with every
command and always, always, err on the side of safety.  I don't think git
is that system.

-Miles

-- 
Yo mama's so fat when she gets on an elevator it HAS to go down.

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 08:57:56AM +0000, Miles Bader wrote:
> Pierre Habouzit <madcoder@debian.org> writes:
> >   There definitely is a point: with the current behaviour you sometimes
> > end up pushing more than what you meant, with sometimes WIP that you
> > intend to rebase, and it hurts. Git porcelains should help you avoid to
> > shoot yourself in the foot, hence I think that (especially to git
> > newcomers), the current default _is_ dangerous.
> 
> What's "dangerous" for newbies, often ends up being what doesn't
> correspond with their mental model.  I think the current default
> behavior without any <refspec> specified corresponds well to the
> operation of many other git commands (and unix command) in similar
> circumstances:  If you don't specify something to operate on, it
> essentially uses a wild card and operates on "every reasonable thing"
> (e.g., consider "git commit FILE" versus "git commit").

  Git commit is hardly a wildcard as it only operates on what you put in
your index, which is hardly something that happens behind your back.

> To the extent that a command _is_ "dangerous", there's always a tradeoff
> between convenience and "danger".  Some systems (e.g. those aimed at
> newbies) might have as a goal to do the absolute minimum with every
> command and always, always, err on the side of safety.  I don't think git
> is that system.

  I beg to differ then. I believe that "git push" default behavior is
wrong. I'm not really a newbie, and it often did not do what I meant. So
it could also be that there isn't a sane default either. I just say the
current one can lead to gross mistakes.

  I know that some porcelains are risky: if you rebase "under" a point
that was published you are shooting yourself in the foot e.g.. But
git-rebase _is_ a command that rewrites history. You're warned from the
first second you use it. But git-push is supposedly only a transport
command, not something that messes with remotes history behind your
back.

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 3/10/2007, a las 10:57, Miles Bader escribió:

> To the extent that a command _is_ "dangerous", there's always a  
> tradeoff
> between convenience and "danger".  Some systems (e.g. those aimed at
> newbies) might have as a goal to do the absolute minimum with every
> command and always, always, err on the side of safety.  I don't  
> think git
> is that system.

While much of this debate can be shortcircuited simply by making the  
behaviour configurable, I would like to take you up on the point that  
you raise here.

If we're going to talk about what kind of system Git is then consider  
this:

- it's inherently distributed and this design actively encourages  
users to treat their local repositories as sandboxes where things are  
tried out, perfected, and then pushed out into the public via one  
means or another

- it's built from the ground up to be good at branching and merging;  
this, combined with my previous point, means that users are likely to  
have multiple heads and often some of them will be "works in  
progress" that aren't yet ready for publication

So it's in that light I see accidentally pushing more than you  
thought you would as "dangerous"; when you make this mistake you're  
basically making stuff available that's not yet ready for  
consumption, and by its nature this mistake is basically  
irreversible: you can't really "unpush" what you pushed, you can only  
push out additional amendments which correct it.

So, in this light, when you say:

> What's "dangerous" for newbies, often ends up being what doesn't
> correspond with their mental model.

I don't know how much it has to do with mental models. I think in  
this case it's a bit simpler than that where you make the mistake  
once or twice and very quickly learn that "git push" means "push  
what's in my repo", not "push only what's on my current branch". It's  
a *very* easy lesson to learn if you get burnt and hardly requires  
any adjustments to ones "mental model".

I personally would be in favour of changing the default because I  
tend to work on a particular branch at a time and then want to push  
*that* out -- generally I'm thinking about one general area or one  
task at a time, and that means one branch at a time; I almost never  
think along the lines of getting all my branches into shape at once  
and then pushing them out in a batch. I think this is more likely to  
be a common pattern, although obviously that remains speculation at  
this point.

Changing the default would be great for people like me; by not having  
to pass additional parameters to git-push I save some keystrokes. If  
I ever want to push everything an "--all" switch would do the job.  
But if people prefer to keep the old default then there'll  
be .gitconfig for people like me. In any case I think more people  
need to speak up on the topic so that we can find out what most  
people really think about changing the default.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Karl Hasselström]

On 2007-10-03 12:25:22 +0200, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:

> In any case I think more people need to speak up on the topic so
> that we can find out what most people really think about changing
> the default.

My vote is for changing it.

Both "push the current branch" and "push all branches" have their
uses, and both can be specified explicitly, so no problem there. The
problem arises when a user expects one default but get another. There
are two cases:

  1. "push the current branch" is the default, but the user intended
     to push all branches. She ends up pushing only a subset of what
     she wanted, which is easily fixed once she notices what's
     happened.

  2. "push all branches" is the default, but the user intended to push
     only the current branch. She ends up pushing a superset of what
     she wanted, which is not easily fixed if she can't be sure that
     no one else has pulled from the public repo before she notices
     what's happened.

So it all comes down to case (2) mistakes being much harder to fix
than case (1) mistakes. Therefore, we should change the default, since
doing so makes it safer.

-- 
Karl Hasselström, kha@treskal.com
      www.treskal.com/kalle

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Junio C Hamano]

Karl Hasselström <kha@treskal.com> writes:

> So it all comes down to case (2) mistakes being much harder to fix
> than case (1) mistakes. Therefore, we should change the default, since
> doing so makes it safer.

I am not convinced.

I've seen many new people alias "rm" to "rm -i" for this (I'd
say "false") reasoning to "default to safer", and end up
training their fingers to say "y" without thinking.

Also mistakes can cut both ways.  Pushing out what you did not
intend to is what you seem to be worried about more.  But not
pushing out enough and not noticing is an equally bad mistake.

People also argue for "default per user".  I am not really
convinced on that point either.

You, an expert, will get asked for help by somebody, walk up to
his shell prompt, and try to help and teach him by showing you
type, and then you suddenly notice the command does not work as
you expect because he set the default differently (because he
read that configuration option on some web parge).  And we will
be in such a cumbersome to diagnose situation _very_ often if we
have per-user default on many things.

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 3/10/2007, a las 13:08, Junio C Hamano escribió:

> Also mistakes can cut both ways.  Pushing out what you did not
> intend to is what you seem to be worried about more.  But not
> pushing out enough and not noticing is an equally bad mistake.

I don't think they're of the same order. If you mistakenly push out  
too little you can easily correct it by pushing again. But what do  
you do if you push out too much? How do you fix that?

> You, an expert, will get asked for help by somebody, walk up to
> his shell prompt, and try to help and teach him by showing you
> type, and then you suddenly notice the command does not work as
> you expect because he set the default differently (because he
> read that configuration option on some web parge).  And we will
> be in such a cumbersome to diagnose situation _very_ often if we
> have per-user default on many things.

True, true.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Karl Hasselström]

On 2007-10-03 04:08:09 -0700, Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Karl Hasselström <kha@treskal.com> writes:
>
> > So it all comes down to case (2) mistakes being much harder to fix
> > than case (1) mistakes. Therefore, we should change the default,
> > since doing so makes it safer.
>
> I am not convinced.
>
> I've seen many new people alias "rm" to "rm -i" for this (I'd say
> "false") reasoning to "default to safer", and end up training their
> fingers to say "y" without thinking.

I don't think that's a good analogy here, since no one is proposing
any kind of interactive prompt.

> Also mistakes can cut both ways. Pushing out what you did not intend
> to is what you seem to be worried about more. But not pushing out
> enough and not noticing is an equally bad mistake.

It may be an equally bad mistake, but it's _not_ equally hard to fix.
(And in my book, that means they aren't in fact equally bad.)

You're right that some users will train their fingers to always type
"git push --all" to the point where they will push everything by
mistake even in cases where that's not what they wanted. But the same
thing will happen with the current default for people who almost
always push just a single branch, and train their fingers for that.
And you just said the two mistakes were equally bad. :-)

> People also argue for "default per user". I am not really convinced
> on that point either.
>
> You, an expert, will get asked for help by somebody, walk up to his
> shell prompt, and try to help and teach him by showing you type, and
> then you suddenly notice the command does not work as you expect
> because he set the default differently (because he read that
> configuration option on some web parge). And we will be in such a
> cumbersome to diagnose situation _very_ often if we have per-user
> default on many things.

I'm generally opposed to per-user settings for that reason. Users who
insist can alias "pusha" to "push --all".

-- 
Karl Hasselström, kha@treskal.com
      www.treskal.com/kalle

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi,

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Karl Hasselstr?m wrote:

>   2. "push all branches" is the default, but the user intended to push
>      only the current branch. She ends up pushing a superset of what
>      she wanted, which is not easily fixed if she can't be sure that
>      no one else has pulled from the public repo before she notices
>      what's happened.

But that is not the default.  Not at all.

The default is to push the refs which the remote and the local side have 
_in common_.

Maybe we should initialise the "remote.origin.push" variable to 
"completely-bogus-branchname" when you "git init --im-a-newbie"?

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Karl Hasselström]

On 2007-10-03 16:27:49 +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Karl Hasselstr?m wrote:
>
> >   2. "push all branches" is the default, but the user intended to
> >      push only the current branch. She ends up pushing a superset
> >      of what she wanted, which is not easily fixed if she can't be
> >      sure that no one else has pulled from the public repo before
> >      she notices what's happened.
>
> But that is not the default. Not at all.
>
> The default is to push the refs which the remote and the local side
> have _in common_.

I know, and that's what I meant by "all branches". Sorry for the
sloppy language.

> Maybe we should initialise the "remote.origin.push" variable to
> "completely-bogus-branchname" when you "git init --im-a-newbie"?

I'd rather have a suboptimal default than different defaults depending
on user settings. (See also Junio's comment on that elsewhere in this
thread.)

-- 
Karl Hasselström, kha@treskal.com
      www.treskal.com/kalle

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi,

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Karl Hasselstr?m wrote:

> On 2007-10-03 16:27:49 +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Karl Hasselstr?m wrote:
> >
> > >   2. "push all branches" is the default, but the user intended to
> > >      push only the current branch. She ends up pushing a superset
> > >      of what she wanted, which is not easily fixed if she can't be
> > >      sure that no one else has pulled from the public repo before
> > >      she notices what's happened.
> >
> > But that is not the default. Not at all.
> >
> > The default is to push the refs which the remote and the local side
> > have _in common_.
> 
> I know, and that's what I meant by "all branches". Sorry for the
> sloppy language.
> 
> > Maybe we should initialise the "remote.origin.push" variable to
> > "completely-bogus-branchname" when you "git init --im-a-newbie"?
> 
> I'd rather have a suboptimal default than different defaults depending
> on user settings. (See also Junio's comment on that elsewhere in this
> thread.)

This thread is getting painful.  Lot's of "I want"s, but nobody to date 
came up with a solution that makes both oldtimers and newtimers happy.

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Pierre Habouzit]

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On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 04:18:56PM +0000, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> This thread is getting painful.  Lot's of "I want"s, but nobody to date 
> came up with a solution that makes both oldtimers and newtimers happy.

I think I made a proposal that tries to reach some kind of consensus:

`git push`::
    no arguments given just pushes the current branch you're on, into
    origin, if a refspec matches.

`git push <remote>`::
    works like now (aka pushes all branches that match a remote branch
    in the given remote).

This way, you can have current "git push" using "git push origin", but
you also have a convenient way to push only the current branch into your
default remote repository without needing to spell out:

  $ git push origin `git symbolic-ref HEAD`

-- 
·O·  Pierre Habouzit
··O                                                madcoder@debian.org
OOO                                                http://www.madism.org

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Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Johannes Schindelin]

Hi,

On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Pierre Habouzit wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 04:18:56PM +0000, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
> > This thread is getting painful.  Lot's of "I want"s, but nobody to date 
> > came up with a solution that makes both oldtimers and newtimers happy.
> 
> I think I made a proposal that tries to reach some kind of consensus:
> 
> `git push`::
>     no arguments given just pushes the current branch you're on, into
>     origin, if a refspec matches.

I use that sometimes, and I do not want only the current branch to be 
pushed.

> `git push <remote>`::
>     works like now (aka pushes all branches that match a remote branch
>     in the given remote).

That would make things inconsistent, and inconsistent things are always 
hard to explain.

> This way, you can have current "git push" using "git push origin", but 
> you also have a convenient way to push only the current branch into your 
> default remote repository without needing to spell out:
> 
>   $ git push origin `git symbolic-ref HEAD`

I wonder how hard it would be to teach _everybody_ to specify _exactly_ 
what they want.

Of course, we'd need an "--existing" option to git-push to trigger the 
behaviour that we have right now.

Ciao,
Dscho

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Karl Hasselström]

On 2007-10-03 17:44:39 +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:

> I wonder how hard it would be to teach _everybody_ to specify
> _exactly_ what they want.
>
> Of course, we'd need an "--existing" option to git-push to trigger
> the behaviour that we have right now.

I could _definitely_ live with that. If the branch config doesn't say
what to do when no arguments are given, then demand a specification on
the command line.

I'll shut up on this topic now, though, since I'm not exactly helping
with the patch/opinion ratio.

-- 
Karl Hasselström, kha@treskal.com
      www.treskal.com/kalle

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Oct 3, 2007, at 7:02 PM, Karl Hasselström wrote:

> On 2007-10-03 17:44:39 +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
>
>> I wonder how hard it would be to teach _everybody_ to specify
>> _exactly_ what they want.
>>
>> Of course, we'd need an "--existing" option to git-push to trigger
>> the behaviour that we have right now.
>
> I could _definitely_ live with that. If the branch config doesn't say
> what to do when no arguments are given, then demand a specification on
> the command line.
>
> I'll shut up on this topic now, though, since I'm not exactly helping
> with the patch/opinion ratio.

Here is an interesting related pitfall where my expectations about
the behaviour of git push in relation with tracking branches were
wrong. I should have know better, but I somehow forgot the details.
I expected that the following would establish a two-way link, not
only a one way link:

    git checkout --track -b mynext origin/next

sets up a tracking branch and "git pull" fetches and merges changes
from origin/next as expected.

I somehow expected that "git push" would push changes from mynext to
origin/next. But it doesn't. It would only do so if I had chosen
the same name for the local branch, that is

    git checkout --track -b next origin/next

would have set up a two-way link -- but maybe only as long as I don't
have other push lines in my config file. I'm not sure about the last
point.

I do not find it very intuitive to mangle the push behaviour into the
naming of the local branch. I think it would be a good idea if the
two commands above would either both setup a pull/push relation
or both would setup a pull-only relation. If pull-only would be the
default another switch could be provided to establish a pull/push
relation, like

    git checkout --track --push -b mynext origin/next

Comments?

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 4/10/2007, a las 16:47, Steffen Prohaska escribió:

> On Oct 3, 2007, at 7:02 PM, Karl Hasselström wrote:
>
>> On 2007-10-03 17:44:39 +0100, Johannes Schindelin wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder how hard it would be to teach _everybody_ to specify
>>> _exactly_ what they want.
>>>
>>> Of course, we'd need an "--existing" option to git-push to trigger
>>> the behaviour that we have right now.
>>
>> I could _definitely_ live with that. If the branch config doesn't say
>> what to do when no arguments are given, then demand a  
>> specification on
>> the command line.
>>
>> I'll shut up on this topic now, though, since I'm not exactly helping
>> with the patch/opinion ratio.
>
> Here is an interesting related pitfall where my expectations about
> the behaviour of git push in relation with tracking branches were
> wrong. I should have know better, but I somehow forgot the details.
> I expected that the following would establish a two-way link, not
> only a one way link:
>
>    git checkout --track -b mynext origin/next
>
> sets up a tracking branch and "git pull" fetches and merges changes
> from origin/next as expected.
>
> I somehow expected that "git push" would push changes from mynext to
> origin/next. But it doesn't. It would only do so if I had chosen
> the same name for the local branch, that is
>
>    git checkout --track -b next origin/next
>
> would have set up a two-way link -- but maybe only as long as I don't
> have other push lines in my config file. I'm not sure about the last
> point.
>
> I do not find it very intuitive to mangle the push behaviour into the
> naming of the local branch. I think it would be a good idea if the
> two commands above would either both setup a pull/push relation
> or both would setup a pull-only relation. If pull-only would be the
> default another switch could be provided to establish a pull/push
> relation, like
>
>    git checkout --track --push -b mynext origin/next
>
> Comments?

Interesting. To me that doesn't seem to be intuitive at all. I  
actually think it makes a lot of sense for the relationship to be  
"one way" in the absence of matching ref names.

Basically, the distributed model works because you know that if you  
have the same commit hash in two repositories you're talking about  
the same thing. Same thing goes for branches; if you expect to be  
able to push back upstream then it's natural to expect that that  
should only work if you have the same ref name to identify the "what"  
that you're actually pushing to.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Steffen Prohaska]

On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:

>> I do not find it very intuitive to mangle the push behaviour into the
>> naming of the local branch. I think it would be a good idea if the
>> two commands above would either both setup a pull/push relation
>> or both would setup a pull-only relation. If pull-only would be the
>> default another switch could be provided to establish a pull/push
>> relation, like
>>
>>    git checkout --track --push -b mynext origin/next
>>
>> Comments?
>
> Interesting. To me that doesn't seem to be intuitive at all. I  
> actually think it makes a lot of sense for the relationship to be  
> "one way" in the absence of matching ref names.
>
> Basically, the distributed model works because you know that if you  
> have the same commit hash in two repositories you're talking about  
> the same thing. Same thing goes for branches; if you expect to be  
> able to push back upstream then it's natural to expect that that  
> should only work if you have the same ref name to identify the  
> "what" that you're actually pushing to.

But how do multiple remotes fit into your model? Maybe my example
above was a bit to simple. How about this one:

    git checkout --track --push -b masterA remoteA/master
    git checkout --track --push -b masterB remoteB/master

I understand what it means because I devised my local naming model.
The model could look totally wrong to you, but it's in my repository.
You'd never see it. But if it fits my mental model, why should git
enforce its master-means-always-master-and-must-not-be-named-differently
model?

	Steffen

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 4/10/2007, a las 18:24, Steffen Prohaska escribió:

> On Oct 4, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:
>
>>> I do not find it very intuitive to mangle the push behaviour into  
>>> the
>>> naming of the local branch. I think it would be a good idea if the
>>> two commands above would either both setup a pull/push relation
>>> or both would setup a pull-only relation. If pull-only would be the
>>> default another switch could be provided to establish a pull/push
>>> relation, like
>>>
>>>    git checkout --track --push -b mynext origin/next
>>>
>>> Comments?
>>
>> Interesting. To me that doesn't seem to be intuitive at all. I  
>> actually think it makes a lot of sense for the relationship to be  
>> "one way" in the absence of matching ref names.
>>
>> Basically, the distributed model works because you know that if  
>> you have the same commit hash in two repositories you're talking  
>> about the same thing. Same thing goes for branches; if you expect  
>> to be able to push back upstream then it's natural to expect that  
>> that should only work if you have the same ref name to identify  
>> the "what" that you're actually pushing to.
>
> But how do multiple remotes fit into your model? Maybe my example
> above was a bit to simple. How about this one:
>
>    git checkout --track --push -b masterA remoteA/master
>    git checkout --track --push -b masterB remoteB/master
>
> I understand what it means because I devised my local naming model.
> The model could look totally wrong to you, but it's in my repository.
> You'd never see it. But if it fits my mental model, why should git
> enforce its master-means-always-master-and-must-not-be-named- 
> differently
> model?

I think I'll leave it up to someone who knows a bit more than me to  
answer that one... It's not a use case I've ever sought out as I  
usually only work with one upstream remote. Sorry I don't have  
anything intelligent to add.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Wincent Colaiuta]

El 3/10/2007, a las 17:27, Johannes Schindelin escribió:

> On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Karl Hasselström wrote:
>
>>   2. "push all branches" is the default, but the user intended to  
>> push
>>      only the current branch. She ends up pushing a superset of what
>>      she wanted, which is not easily fixed if she can't be sure that
>>      no one else has pulled from the public repo before she notices
>>      what's happened.
>
> But that is not the default.  Not at all.
>
> The default is to push the refs which the remote and the local side  
> have
> _in common_.

Yes, that's already been covered in this thread, probably in the  
first or second post, and (at least I hope) we've all read it and  
take it as given.

Replace "push all branches" with "push all refs that both sides have  
in common", which is presumably what Karl meant, and the concerns are  
still there.

> Maybe we should initialise the "remote.origin.push" variable to
> "completely-bogus-branchname" when you "git init --im-a-newbie"?

How is this comment supposed to help in any way? Please try to think  
about the image you're putting across; as an relatively active and  
prominent contributer in the Git community you are part of the "face"  
of the community.

Cheers,
Wincent

Re: git push (mis ?)behavior

[Benoit SIGOURE]

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On Oct 3, 2007, at 12:25 PM, Wincent Colaiuta wrote:

> El 3/10/2007, a las 10:57, Miles Bader escribió:
>
>> To the extent that a command _is_ "dangerous", there's always a  
>> tradeoff
>> between convenience and "danger".  Some systems (e.g. those aimed at
>> newbies) might have as a goal to do the absolute minimum with every
>> command and always, always, err on the side of safety.  I don't  
>> think git
>> is that system.
>
> While much of this debate can be shortcircuited simply by making  
> the behaviour configurable, I would like to take you up on the  
> point that you raise here.
>
> If we're going to talk about what kind of system Git is then  
> consider this:
>
> - it's inherently distributed and this design actively encourages  
> users to treat their local repositories as sandboxes where things  
> are tried out, perfected, and then pushed out into the public via  
> one means or another
>
> - it's built from the ground up to be good at branching and  
> merging; this, combined with my previous point, means that users  
> are likely to have multiple heads and often some of them will be  
> "works in progress" that aren't yet ready for publication
>
> So it's in that light I see accidentally pushing more than you  
> thought you would as "dangerous"; when you make this mistake you're  
> basically making stuff available that's not yet ready for  
> consumption, and by its nature this mistake is basically  
> irreversible: you can't really "unpush" what you pushed, you can  
> only push out additional amendments which correct it.
>
> So, in this light, when you say:
>
>> What's "dangerous" for newbies, often ends up being what doesn't
>> correspond with their mental model.
>
> I don't know how much it has to do with mental models. I think in  
> this case it's a bit simpler than that where you make the mistake  
> once or twice and very quickly learn that "git push" means "push  
> what's in my repo", not "push only what's on my current branch".  
> It's a *very* easy lesson to learn if you get burnt and hardly  
> requires any adjustments to ones "mental model".
>
> I personally would be in favour of changing the default because I  
> tend to work on a particular branch at a time and then want to push  
> *that* out -- generally I'm thinking about one general area or one  
> task at a time, and that means one branch at a time; I almost never  
> think along the lines of getting all my branches into shape at once  
> and then pushing them out in a batch. I think this is more likely  
> to be a common pattern, although obviously that remains speculation  
> at this point.
>
> Changing the default would be great for people like me; by not  
> having to pass additional parameters to git-push I save some  
> keystrokes. If I ever want to push everything an "--all" switch  
> would do the job. But if people prefer to keep the old default then  
> there'll be .gitconfig for people like me. In any case I think more  
> people need to speak up on the topic so that we can find out what  
> most people really think about changing the default.
>

I completely second all that.  I've been using Git for roughly 3  
months and have been burnt the same way.

-- 
Benoit Sigoure aka Tsuna
EPITA Research and Development Laboratory



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