Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[linux]

Actually, AFAICT from looking at the mailing list history, it's not dirty
politics: the tie-breaker was the support and enthusiasm of the mercurial
developers.  It passed with only minor comment on the git mailing list,
but it was a Big Thing to the hg folks.

There are ups and downs.  OpenSolaris is definitely the big fish in
the mercurial pond (that wasn't *meant* to sound like a recipe for
heavy metal toxicity), and will get lots of attention, but git has more
real-world experience.  The big fish in the git pond is Linus and Linux.

In any case, mercurial and git are really very similar, far closer
to each other than any third system, so it's not like the decision is
a descent into heresy.  Hopefully some useful cross-pollination
can occur, and converting history from one to the other would be
simple if anyone ever wanted to.


As for explicit renames, people are confused on the subject.
IMHO, the two most revolutionary things about git are:

- Finally, a complete break from file-oriented history.  History is made
  of trees, and trees are made of files.  There is no direct connection
  between files in different commits.
- An explicit representation of an in-progress merge.
  This is what makes multiple merge strategies easily implementable.

Third, I suppose, is the raw diff format and the diffcore pipeline.

But finally getting away from the SCCS & RCS idea that the file is the
unit of history is one of git's Great Features, and it shouldn't be
thrown away.


What people who are asking for explicit rename tracking actually want
is automatic rename merging.  If branch A renames a file, and branch B
corrects a typo on a comment somewhere, they'd like the merge to
both patch and rename the file.  If you can do that, you have met the
need, even if your solution isn't the one the feature requester
imagined.

(This is the general consulting problem: a client calls when they've
been trying a solution and can't get past some problem.  Usually, this
is because they've wandered into a blind alley, and what they're asking
for is either far more difficult than necessary, or will just lead them
into greater problems.  The first thing you have to determine is what
they actually want to do, as distinct from how they've decided to do it.)


But, as Linus has pointed out, this is a very partial solution which
introduces a lot of difficulties elsewhere.  File renaming is a subset of
the general class of code reorganizations.  Source files will be split,
merged, and have functions moved back and forth.  You want the patch to
find the code it applies to even if that code was moved.

And that can be done by taking a more global view of the patch.
Identical file names is only a heuristic.  If the hunk on branch A
can't find a place to apply on the same file in branch B, then
you have to look a little harder, either at changes from branch B
that introduce matching code elsewhere, or perhaps looking
through history for a change that removed the match from the
obvious place to see if it added a match elsewhere.

The one thing that makes this difficult is git-read-tree's automatic
collapse of "trivial" merges.  If branch B moves foo() unchanged from
x.c to y.c, while branch A doesn't touch y.c, but edits foo() in x.c,
git-read-tree will collapse the changes to y.c before even invoking
the advanced resolve script.

(The solution might be to keep *four* versions of the file in the index:
the three pre-merge, *and* the post-merge.  Then git-write-tree makes
sure everything has a stage 0 entry and strips out the stage 1, 2 and
3 entries.  This way, one merge algorithm can use another as a
subroutine but decide not to accept something it did.)


But anyway, it's the merging that's the desired feature.  Explicitly
recording renames is only the means to that end, and is superfluous
if there's another way of getting there.  (And the place to look for
interesting new ideas in that area Darcs.)

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Fredrik Kuivinen]

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 08:56:59PM -0400, linux@horizon.com wrote:
> What people who are asking for explicit rename tracking actually want
> is automatic rename merging.  If branch A renames a file, and branch B
> corrects a typo on a comment somewhere, they'd like the merge to
> both patch and rename the file.  If you can do that, you have met the
> need, even if your solution isn't the one the feature requester
> imagined.

I don't know if you already know this, if you do it might be valuable
for other readers.

If the rename is detected by the current rename detection code
(git-diff-tree -M) then the merge case described above is handled
perfectly fine by the current git. That is, the rename is followed and
the patch fixing the typo is applied to the renamed file. This assumes
that the default merge strategy (recursive) is used.


- Fredrik

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Fredrik Kuivinen wrote:

> On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 08:56:59PM -0400, linux@horizon.com wrote:
>> What people who are asking for explicit rename tracking actually want
>> is automatic rename merging.  If branch A renames a file, and branch B
>> corrects a typo on a comment somewhere, they'd like the merge to
>> both patch and rename the file.  If you can do that, you have met the
>> need, even if your solution isn't the one the feature requester
>> imagined.
> 
> I don't know if you already know this, if you do it might be valuable
> for other readers.
> 
> If the rename is detected by the current rename detection code
> (git-diff-tree -M) then the merge case described above is handled
> perfectly fine by the current git. That is, the rename is followed and
> the patch fixing the typo is applied to the renamed file. This assumes
> that the default merge strategy (recursive) is used.

And if you do 'commit - rename, no changes - commit' sequence then rename
will be detected. 

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 08:22:36AM CEST, I got a letter
where Fredrik Kuivinen <freku045@student.liu.se> said that...
> On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 08:56:59PM -0400, linux@horizon.com wrote:
> > What people who are asking for explicit rename tracking actually want
> > is automatic rename merging.  If branch A renames a file, and branch B
> > corrects a typo on a comment somewhere, they'd like the merge to
> > both patch and rename the file.  If you can do that, you have met the
> > need, even if your solution isn't the one the feature requester
> > imagined.
> 
> I don't know if you already know this, if you do it might be valuable
> for other readers.
> 
> If the rename is detected by the current rename detection code
> (git-diff-tree -M) then the merge case described above is handled
> perfectly fine by the current git. That is, the rename is followed and
> the patch fixing the typo is applied to the renamed file. This assumes
> that the default merge strategy (recursive) is used.

But the non-obviously important part here to note is that the branch B
merely "corrects a typo on a comment somewhere" - the latest versions in
branch A and branch B are always compared for renames, therefore if
branch A renamed the file and branch B sums up to some larger-scale
changes in the file, it still won't be merged properly.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:

> But the non-obviously important part here to note is that the branch B
> merely "corrects a typo on a comment somewhere" - the latest versions in
> branch A and branch B are always compared for renames, therefore if
> branch A renamed the file and branch B sums up to some larger-scale
> changes in the file, it still won't be merged properly.

I probably am guilty of starting this misinformation, but the
code does not compare the latest in A and B for rename
detection; it compares (O, A) and (O, B).

But the end result is the same - what you say is correct.  If a
path (say O to A) that renamed has too big a change, then no
matter how small the changes are on the other path (O to B),
rename detection can be fooled.  We could perhaps alleviate it
by following the whole commit chain.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 11:51:01AM CEST, I got a letter
where Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> said that...
> Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:
> 
> > But the non-obviously important part here to note is that the branch B
> > merely "corrects a typo on a comment somewhere" - the latest versions in
> > branch A and branch B are always compared for renames, therefore if
> > branch A renamed the file and branch B sums up to some larger-scale
> > changes in the file, it still won't be merged properly.
> 
> I probably am guilty of starting this misinformation, but the
> code does not compare the latest in A and B for rename
> detection; it compares (O, A) and (O, B).

Where O = LCA(A,B) (modulo recursiveness)? Yes, that is what I meant to
say but I phrased it wrong, sorry.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Junio C Hamano wrote:

> Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:
> 
>> But the non-obviously important part here to note is that the branch B
>> merely "corrects a typo on a comment somewhere" - the latest versions in
>> branch A and branch B are always compared for renames, therefore if
>> branch A renamed the file and branch B sums up to some larger-scale
>> changes in the file, it still won't be merged properly.
> 
> I probably am guilty of starting this misinformation, but the
> code does not compare the latest in A and B for rename
> detection; it compares (O, A) and (O, B).
> 
> But the end result is the same - what you say is correct.  If a
> path (say O to A) that renamed has too big a change, then no
> matter how small the changes are on the other path (O to B),
> rename detection can be fooled.  We could perhaps alleviate it
> by following the whole commit chain.

Or perhaps by helper information about renames, entered either by git-mv
(and git-cp) or rename detection at commit, e.g. in the following form

        note at <commit-sha1> was-in <pathname>
        note at <commit-sha1> was-in <pathname>

(with the obvious limit of this "note header" solution is that it wouldn't
work for filenames and directory name containing "\n"). I'm not sure if
<pathname> should be just basename, of full pathname.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Jakub Narebski wrote:

> Junio C Hamano wrote:
> 
>> Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:
>> 
>>> But the non-obviously important part here to note is that the branch B
>>> merely "corrects a typo on a comment somewhere" - the latest versions in
>>> branch A and branch B are always compared for renames, therefore if
>>> branch A renamed the file and branch B sums up to some larger-scale
>>> changes in the file, it still won't be merged properly.
>> 
>> I probably am guilty of starting this misinformation, but the
>> code does not compare the latest in A and B for rename
>> detection; it compares (O, A) and (O, B).
>> 
>> But the end result is the same - what you say is correct.  If a
>> path (say O to A) that renamed has too big a change, then no
>> matter how small the changes are on the other path (O to B),
>> rename detection can be fooled.  We could perhaps alleviate it
>> by following the whole commit chain.
> 
> Or perhaps by helper information about renames, entered either by git-mv
> (and git-cp) or rename detection at commit, e.g. in the following form
> 
>         note at <commit-sha1> was-in <pathname>
>         note at <commit-sha1> was-in <pathname>
> 
> (with the obvious limit of this "note header" solution is that it wouldn't
> work for filenames and directory name containing "\n"). I'm not sure if
> <pathname> should be just basename, of full pathname.

Erm, I'm sorry, forget the implementation which wouldn't work. The idea was
to accumulate renames and contents moving information, and remember at
which commit it occured. But it's place (as a _helper_ information) is
perhaps in separate structure.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 02:56:59AM CEST, I got a letter
where linux@horizon.com said that...
> Actually, AFAICT from looking at the mailing list history, it's not dirty
> politics: the tie-breaker was the support and enthusiasm of the mercurial
> developers.  It passed with only minor comment on the git mailing list,
> but it was a Big Thing to the hg folks.
> 
> There are ups and downs.  OpenSolaris is definitely the big fish in
> the mercurial pond (that wasn't *meant* to sound like a recipe for
> heavy metal toxicity), and will get lots of attention, but git has more
> real-world experience.  The big fish in the git pond is Linus and Linux.
> 
> In any case, mercurial and git are really very similar, far closer
> to each other than any third system, so it's not like the decision is
> a descent into heresy.  Hopefully some useful cross-pollination
> can occur, and converting history from one to the other would be
> simple if anyone ever wanted to.

It's a philosophical question here, but I'd say that Git is much closer
to Monotone than to any other version control system - I think it can be
described as Monotone model with more elegant implementation (for some,
at least ;), no certificates and restriction of one head per branch.
And another important difference is that Monotone has persistent file
identifiers, but I think that's about the only thing that would make
Monotone more "file orientated".

I'm not much of a Mercurial pro but it appears to me that the
architectural differences there are larger, especially wrt. the revlogs
and wholly quite a more file-oriented model.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Fri, 5 May 2006, Petr Baudis wrote:
> 
> It's a philosophical question here, but I'd say that Git is much closer
> to Monotone than to any other version control system

Some historical background..

Before I dropped BK, I ended up being involved in trying to get Larry and 
Tridge to come to some agreement about how to solve the issues Tridge had 
with BK not being open-source. That actually went on for maybe two months 
or so, and I kept on hoping that we'd find some acceptably middle ground. 

I thought we could find somethign that would actually work for everybody: 
to hopefully both make BK technically better, _and_ to make the end result 
more palatable to the "free software or bust" contingency.

One of the suggestions that I tried to push as an acceptable middle ground 
was to make a "generic" BK repository export format, so that people who 
didn't want to use BK could still get all the information, and not in a 
broken format like CVS (yes, CVS makes sense as an interchange format, 
since _everybody_ speaks CVS, but it's a horrible, horrible, horrible 
format from any technical standpoint).

My example export format was really a strange mixture of patches with 
parenthood information, where the history information was described with 
hashes (MD5 rather than SHA1, but that was just an implementation thing, 
and mostly because BK used MD5 sums). Not something really useful as a 
real SCM, but it wasn't designed for that - it was just meant to be a 
useful and unambiguous interoperability format.

Now, that didn't work out, and I was a little bummed. I thought it would 
have made both sides happy, because it would actually have been a better 
format than CVS (and yes, I'm somewhat biased: in my opinion, having a 
million monkeys throwing crap at the walls and encoding the information in 
the patterns on monkey shit is a better format than CVS), so it would 
actually have improved BK, while also making it possible to interoperate 
if you didn't want to use BK itself.

But Tridge didn't believe that it would actually have exported all the 
information in a BK tree, even if both I and Larry told him it would. I'm 
not a hundred percent sure that Larry would have gone for the export 
format either, but hey, one sign of a good compromise is that neither side 
really gets what they really want. Whatever. It didn't work.

So it didn't actually resolve the deadlock, but when it became clear that 
I couldn't work with BK any more, I thought I might use something like 
that "patch + parenthood" representation as a way to maintain my tree 
while looking at other alternatives.

So in many ways, when I started looking around for distributed SCM's, I 
came into the game with the background of keeping the history around as 
chains of hashes describing it, and then just having patches to describe 
the differences between versions.

So that was really my "fallback" position: if nothing out there worked, 
I'd rather go back to lists of patches than use CVS. 

Now, if you keep track of just patches, one of the issues is that you 
can't afford to re-create the tree every time by walking patches forward 
from the beginning, so I also was planning to have an "cache" that 
maintained the current state of the tree as a separate state from the 
working tree, so that I would always have the "working tree" and the 
"result of patches up to this moment" as two separate things (so that I 
could do the "bk diff" that I was used to doing to see the difference 
between my last state and the current state of the working tree).

In other words, I was already working on the git "index" file. And I was 
planning to just have a patch-based system behind it, with a hashed 
history. Kind of "quilt with history and an index to speed things up".

The index itself would be backed-up with whole files (all hidden in the 
".dircache" directory), and the patch series would thus normally never 
actually be _used_. So the inefficiency of working with patches would 
never be much of an issue. A "commit" would create a new patch from the 
current working directory and the previous shadow tree, and update the 
shadow tree and add a new entry to the history list.

And then I found Monotone.

Now, monotone was slow. Monotone was so _horrendously_ slow that I had to 
do special hacks just to import _one_ version of Linux into it in less 
than two hours. It was something stupid like an O(N**3) algorithm in the 
number of filenames (and the kernel had 17,291 files at that time: 
v2.6.12-rc2), and it was just totally unusable for me.

I also thought (and still think) that the whole signing thing was a waste 
of time and misdesigned, and I obviously am not a huge fan of databases. 
So in many ways I disliked the monotone implementation decisions (and some 
of its design decisions). But at the same time, I immediately liked the 
SHA1 object naming concept of Monotone.

It also already matched how I had conceptually planned on doing on the 
history anyway, and had some ideas for, but it took that whole "history 
hashing" all the way.

And thus git was born. 

So git really has three parents. In a very real sense, BK (or, perhaps 
more appropriately - the way I personally used BK, which is not 
necessarily how others have used it) was the biggest thing from the 
standpoint of what I wanted my _workflow_ to be like. It was simply how I 
had done things for the last few years, so a lot of my mental model for 
how things are supposed to _work_ came from BK. 

I still don't think people give Larry enough credit for actually pushing 
this whole distributed SCM thing as a _usable_ model. Very few of the 
open-source distributed SCM's are actually usable even today, and as far 
as I've been able to gather, the commercial ones aren't really any closer 
either. Larry didn't have the kind of examples of what _can_ work that I 
had.

The other parent was the stupid "series of patches" model, which was what 
really resulted in the "index" thing. I realize that people don't always 
much like the index, but it's really a pretty central part of git history, 
and one of the distinguising marks of git. It may be trivial, and to some 
degree it's been overshadowed by all the tree operations we do (the 
combination of revision walking and tree diffing), but it was very central 
to how git came to be.

The index also ended up being central to how we did merges - even if some 
day we may end up doing more of that on a pure tree level (ie the current 
git-merge-tree model), I think the way we ended up doing merges owes a lot 
to the index as a staging area.

(Historically, the "index" was called the "cache". Exactly because it came 
from the notion of "caching" the top commit state in a patch series, and 
then working with patches either backwards or forwards from that top 
cached state. Similarly, we didn't have a ".git" directory: it was 
called ".dircache", exactly because it was all about caching the state 
of the previous commit directory layout).

And finally, Monotone for the "everything is an object named by its SHA1" 
model, which to some degree is perhaps the central - or at least the most 
obvious - part of git. It largely was designed really just to be the 
"backing store" for the "cache", and to not be _that_ important. That also 
explains why I didn't worry too much about disk usage etc initially: the 
object store wasn't even the most important part, and I envisioned just 
moving old objects that weren't needed into some "backup storage" kind of 
thing.

			Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Dave Jones]

On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 10:48:38AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:

 > (and yes, I'm somewhat biased: in my opinion, having a 
 > million monkeys throwing crap at the walls and encoding the information in 
 > the patterns on monkey shit is a better format than CVS), so it would 
 > actually have improved BK, while also making it possible to interoperate 
 > if you didn't want to use BK itself.
 >  ...
 > So that was really my "fallback" position: if nothing out there worked, 
 > I'd rather go back to lists of patches than use CVS. 

I've encountered managing kernel trees in CVS both during my tenure at SuSE,
and to a more involved extent as Fedora/RHEL maintainer, and I'd just like
to echo how much it _completely sucks_ at times.

Rebasing to a newer release is a *nightmare* that usually takes
up most of an afternoon compared to rebasing my git based projects.

In the event I can't persuade the powers at be to switch to git at some point
for managing our packages, I'll be sure to bring up your suggestion of
a million monkeys. I believe you can pick them up fairly cheap these days.

		Dave

-- 
http://www.codemonkey.org.uk

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 02:56:59AM CEST, I got a letter
where linux@horizon.com said that...
> But, as Linus has pointed out, this is a very partial solution which
> introduces a lot of difficulties elsewhere.  File renaming is a subset of
> the general class of code reorganizations.  Source files will be split,
> merged, and have functions moved back and forth.  You want the patch to
> find the code it applies to even if that code was moved.
> 
> And that can be done by taking a more global view of the patch.
> Identical file names is only a heuristic.  If the hunk on branch A
> can't find a place to apply on the same file in branch B, then
> you have to look a little harder, either at changes from branch B
> that introduce matching code elsewhere, or perhaps looking
> through history for a change that removed the match from the
> obvious place to see if it added a match elsewhere.

There are really two distinctions here which should be kept separate:
automatic vs. explicit movement tracking and file-level vs.
subfile-level movement tracking.

The automatic vs. explicit movement tracking is a lot more
controversial. Explicit movement tracking is pretty easy to provide for
file-level movements, it's just that the user says "I _did_ move file
A to file B" (I never got the Linus' argument that the user has no idea
- he just _performed_ the move, also explicitly, by calling *mv).

However, I guess the explicit movement tracking completely fails if you
go sub-file (without being extremely bothersome for the user) - you
would have to have control over the editor and the clipboard and even
then I'm not sure if you could reach any sensible results.

I still dislike automated movement tracking for whole files, but I'm
conciliated with it. Because it is probably the only really sensible way
to implement subfile-level tracking.  It would not be hard to implement
using pickaxe (actually, I believe it was near the top of Junio's TODO
few weeks ago) and a similarity detector comparing new and old version
(if it's dissimilar enough, check if that or a similar hunk was not
added somewhere else in the same commit; well, at least the idea
sounds simple).

One obvious problem are ambiguities - several similar files are renamed
to other similar files and now how do you decide which version to
choose? Merge the change to all the new files? Only to some? Panic?
I wonder how does the current recursive strategy deal with that.
Of course, this case sounds quite artificial and rare for whole files,
but I suspect that it will be much more common once you do not deal with
files but just hunks, moving bits of code around.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 08:15:41PM CEST, I got a letter
where Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> said that...
> There are really two distinctions here which should be kept separate:
> automatic vs. explicit movement tracking and file-level vs.
> subfile-level movement tracking.

I should have revised this paragraph before sending the mail out, I
ended up sorting out my thoughts on the subject as I wrote the mail. The
two aspects end up so tied that it makes sense to mingle them. Examining
them separately here still hopefully shed some light on possible
reasoning behind the Git design decisions.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Petr Baudis wrote:

> The automatic vs. explicit movement tracking is a lot more
> controversial. Explicit movement tracking is pretty easy to provide for
> file-level movements, it's just that the user says "I _did_ move file
> A to file B" (I never got the Linus' argument that the user has no idea
> - he just _performed_ the move, also explicitly, by calling *mv).
> 
> However, I guess the explicit movement tracking completely fails if you
> go sub-file (without being extremely bothersome for the user) - you
> would have to have control over the editor and the clipboard and even
> then I'm not sure if you could reach any sensible results.

If I remember correctly there are some problems if the explicit file-level
contents movement tracking (aka. file rename tracking) is done via
equivalent of file-id, inodes, or persistent names. Although it works for
many (most?) cases.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Fri, 5 May 2006, Petr Baudis wrote:
> 
> The automatic vs. explicit movement tracking is a lot more
> controversial. Explicit movement tracking is pretty easy to provide for
> file-level movements, it's just that the user says "I _did_ move file
> A to file B" (I never got the Linus' argument that the user has no idea
> - he just _performed_ the move, also explicitly, by calling *mv).

THE USER DID NO SUCH THING.

Moving data around happens with a whole lot more than "mv".

It happens with patches (somebody _else_ may have done an "mv", without 
using git at all), and it happens with editors (moving data around until 
most of it exists in another file).

So doing "*mv" is just a special case.

And supporting special cases is _wrong_. If you start depending on data 
that isn't actually dependable, that's WRONG.

There's another reason why encoding movement information in the commit is 
totally broken, namely the fact that a lot of the actions DO NOT WALK THE 
COMMIT CHAIN!

Try doing

	git diff v1.3.0..

and think about what that actually _means_. Think about the fact that it 
doesn't actually walk the commit chain at all: it diffs the trees between 
v1.3.0 and the current one. What if the rename happened in a commit in the 
middle?

The "track contents, not intentions" approach avoids both these things. 
The end result is _reliable_, not a "random guess".

Adding file movement note to commits is simply WRONG.

Why does this come up every three months or so? I was right the first 
time. You'd think that as time passes, people would just notice more and 
more how right I was and am, instead of forgetting and bringing this 
idiotic idea up over and over and over again.

		Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 08:31:06PM CEST, I got a letter
where Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> said that...
> Moving data around happens with a whole lot more than "mv".

Let's keep this on the per-file level - if you want to go below the file
granularity, I already _DID_ say that I agree that explicit tracking is
not a way. (If sub-file tracking would end up having any usable
reliability in real-world cases, which is something I do not take for
granted.)

Another thing is, the sub-file content tracking would end up being a lot
more "magic" than the simple per-file content tracking, and you stated
several times that you prefer simple merge over better but magic merge -
so why do you prefer sub-file content tracking anyway?

> It happens with patches (somebody _else_ may have done an "mv", without 
> using git at all),

_Here_ is the place for automated renames detection. Between applying
and committing the patch, the user can verify that it got the renames
right. That's impossible when guessing the renames later.

> and it happens with editors (moving data around until 
> most of it exists in another file).

I doubt this in fact happens that often (to a degree the automatic
rename detection would catch). And if it happens, then the user has to
tell Git - I have never heard that _this_ would be any problem in other
version control systems. You could make it more foolproof by running the
automatic rename detection on the diff being committed and suggesting
the user that other yet unrecorded renames did happen.

The point is, the user stays in control and can override any stupid guess.

> So doing "*mv" is just a special case.
> 
> And supporting special cases is _wrong_. If you start depending on data 
> that isn't actually dependable, that's WRONG.

I prefer making this data dependable to having to resort to guessing on
dependable less amount of data.

> There's another reason why encoding movement information in the commit is 
> totally broken, namely the fact that a lot of the actions DO NOT WALK THE 
> COMMIT CHAIN!
> 
> Try doing
> 
> 	git diff v1.3.0..
> 
> and think about what that actually _means_. Think about the fact that it 
> doesn't actually walk the commit chain at all: it diffs the trees between 
> v1.3.0 and the current one. What if the rename happened in a commit in the 
> middle?

Then the automated renames detection will miss it given that the other
accumulated differences are large enough, and the suggested workarounds
_are_ precisely walking the commit chain.

If you use persistent file ids, you never miss it _AND_ you DO NOT WALK
THE COMMIT CHAIN! You still just match file ids in the two trees.

> The "track contents, not intentions" approach avoids both these things. 
> The end result is _reliable_, not a "random guess".

No, the end result is whichever some heuristic randomly guessed, and
it's not reliable either since the heuristic can change.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Petr Baudis wrote:

> Dear diary, on Fri, May 05, 2006 at 08:31:06PM CEST, I got a letter
> where Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> said that...

> I prefer making this [rename detection] data dependable to having to
> resort to guessing on dependable less amount of data.
> 
>> There's another reason why encoding movement information in the commit is
>> totally broken, namely the fact that a lot of the actions DO NOT WALK THE
>> COMMIT CHAIN!
>> 
>> Try doing
>> 
>> git diff v1.3.0..
>> 
>> and think about what that actually _means_. Think about the fact that it
>> doesn't actually walk the commit chain at all: it diffs the trees between
>> v1.3.0 and the current one. What if the rename happened in a commit in
>> the middle?
> 
> Then the automated renames detection will miss it given that the other
> accumulated differences are large enough, and the suggested workarounds
> _are_ precisely walking the commit chain.
> 
> If you use persistent file ids, you never miss it _AND_ you DO NOT WALK
> THE COMMIT CHAIN! You still just match file ids in the two trees.

Let not jump to the one of the possible solution. The detecting and noting
renames and content moving (with user interaction) at commit is nice...
unless does something which cannot allow interactiveness (like applying
patchbomb), but even then detecting and saving info at commit would be good
idea.

What we need is to for two given linked revisions (with a path between them)
to easily extract information about renames (content moving). Perhaps using
additional structure... best if we could do this without walking the chain.
The rest is details... ;-P

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Jakub Narebski wrote:

> Petr Baudis wrote:

>> If you use persistent file ids, you never miss it _AND_ you DO NOT WALK
>> THE COMMIT CHAIN! You still just match file ids in the two trees.
> 
> Let not jump to the one of the possible solution. The detecting and noting
> renames and content moving (with user interaction) at commit is nice...
> unless does something which cannot allow interactiveness (like applying
> patchbomb), but even then detecting and saving info at commit would be
> good idea.
> 
> What we need is to for two given linked revisions (with a path between
> them) to easily extract information about renames (content moving).
> Perhaps using additional structure... best if we could do this without
> walking the chain. The rest is details... ;-P

Or rather structure, which for given file F in given revision A, for given
other revision B would tell ALL the files in the revision B which are
source of contents (via history/commit tree) of the file F.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:

> I doubt this in fact happens that often (to a degree the automatic
> rename detection would catch). And if it happens, then the user has to
> tell Git - I have never heard that _this_ would be any problem in other
> version control systems.

It does not become an issue only because users accept it as a
fact of life.  When Linus was moving most of the contents in
rev-list.c to create a new revision.c, I already had some tweaks
to rev-list.c published before he sent me a patch for the code
movement, and I am sure he needed to re-roll the patch by
merging the change I did to rev-list.c back into his revision.c
file.  No SCM may handle that automatically, and no user
accustomed to existing SCM (including git) expect that to work
automatically.  But that does not necessarily mean a tool that
notices it and tells user what is going on is a bad thing.

However it is a different story to try recording "what is going on"
whether it comes from the tool's guess or directly from the user.

Having a way to affect the inprecise "guess" the tool makes when
that guesswork is needed might make sense.  If you (think you)
know arch/i386/foo.h was copied to create arch/x86-64/foo.h but
the detector does not detect it and seeing a creation patch for
arch/x86-64/foo.h frustrates you, you may want to have a way to
explicitly say "compare arch/i386/foo.h with arch/x86-64/foo.h
in that commit -- I want to examine the change needed to adjust
foo to x86-64 architecture".

But we have "git diff v2.6.14:arch/i386/foo.h v2.6.14:arch/x86-64/foo.h"
for that ;-).

> Then the automated renames detection will miss it given that the other
> accumulated differences are large enough, and the suggested workarounds
> _are_ precisely walking the commit chain.

The HEAD may _not_ have anything to do with v1.3.0 in which case
you would get nothing from walking the ancestry.

> If you use persistent file ids, you never miss it _AND_ you DO NOT WALK
> THE COMMIT CHAIN! You still just match file ids in the two trees.

It is unworkable.

Which one should inherit the persistent id of the old
rev-list.c?  New rev-list.c, or revision.c that has most of the
old contents split out?

Oh, and did you know there was a different revision.h that is
not related to the current revision.h in the history of git?
Should its persistent id have any relation with the persistent
id of the current revision.h?  When would you decide to make the
id inherited and when not to?  If I remove revision.h by mistake
in a commit and resurrect it in the next commit, should it get
the same id back?  If I forget to tell the tool that those two
"disappeared and then reappeared" are related and should get the
same persistent id when I make the resurrection commit, and keep
piling other commits on top, do I have to rewind the ancestry
chain all the way to correct the mistake?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Martin Langhoff]

On 5/6/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> > If you use persistent file ids, you never miss it _AND_ you DO NOT WALK
> > THE COMMIT CHAIN! You still just match file ids in the two trees.
>
> It is unworkable.

+1 -- explicit file ids are evil. Arch/TLA demonstrated that amply...
they are a serious annoyance to the end user, they have a lot of
not-elegantly solvable cases (same file created with the same contents
in several repos -- say via an emailed patch) that git gets right
_today_.

They _are_ useful in a very small set of cases -- namely in the case
of a naive mv, which git handles correctly today. Subtler things git
sometimes does right, sometimes fails, but it can be made to be much
smarter by interpreting content changes better, for instance all this
talk about getting pickaxe to guess where the patch should be applied
for a file that got split into 3.

But those subtler cases are totally impossible with explicit id
tracking. I used Arch for a long time with very large trees, and
renames coming left, right and centre. Explicit ids didn't help much,
and the number of manual fixups we had to do was awful.

I am using GIT with the very same project, and just now, typing this,
I realised that there are still many renames happening in the project.
I had forgotten about it -- well, not really: I do use git-merge
instead of cg-merge when I suspect there may be interesting cases ;-)

Of course, YMMV, and I have to confess I was a sceptic for a while...
but now as an end-user dealing with messy projects, I say LIRAR: Linus
Is Right About Renames.

OTOH,

>> Try doing
>>
>> git diff v1.3.0..
>>
>> and think about what that actually _means_. Think about the fact that it
>> doesn't actually walk the commit chain at all: it diffs the trees between
>> v1.3.0 and the current one. What if the rename happened in a commit in
>> the middle?
>
> Then the automated renames detection will miss it given that the other
> accumulated differences are large enough, and the suggested workarounds
> _are_ precisely walking the commit chain.

I agree here with Pasky that after a while the automated
renames/copy/splitup detection will miss the operation in cases where
it would be interesting to note it to the user. IIRC git-rerere is the
tool that knows about this (still voodoo to me how) and could be used
to help here. At what (runtime) cost, I don't know, but that kind of
walking history to tell me more interesting things about the diff is
something that is usually worthwhile.

Usual disclaimers apply.


martin

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

"Martin Langhoff" <martin.langhoff@gmail.com> writes:

> I agree here with Pasky that after a while the automated
> renames/copy/splitup detection will miss the operation in cases where
> it would be interesting to note it to the user. IIRC git-rerere is the
> tool that knows about this (still voodoo to me how) and could be used
> to help here. At what (runtime) cost, I don't know, but that kind of
> walking history to tell me more interesting things about the diff is
> something that is usually worthwhile.

FYI rerere is a totally unrelated voodoo.

It remembers the conflict marker pattern <<< === >>> immediately
after it runs "merge" (ah, that reminds me -- I should replace
them with diff3), and then remembers the result of the manual
resolution just before the user makes a commit.  Then, when next
time it runs "merge" for something and notices <<< === >>>
pattern it has seen before, it runs a three-way merge between
the previous resolution result and the current conflicted state,
using the previous conflicted state as the common origin.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Martin Langhoff wrote:

> On 5/6/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:

>>> Try doing
>>>
>>> git diff v1.3.0..
>>>
>>> and think about what that actually _means_. Think about the fact that it
>>> doesn't actually walk the commit chain at all: it diffs the trees
>>> between v1.3.0 and the current one. What if the rename happened in a
>>> commit in the middle?
>>
>> Then the automated renames detection will miss it given that the other
>> accumulated differences are large enough, and the suggested workarounds
>> _are_ precisely walking the commit chain.
> 
> I agree here with Pasky that after a while the automated
> renames/copy/splitup detection will miss the operation in cases where
> it would be interesting to note it to the user.

Perhaps an option to do rename detection with walking the commit chain?

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> writes:

> Perhaps an option to do rename detection with walking the commit chain?

Have fun implementing that ;-).

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Bertrand Jacquin]

On 5/6/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Perhaps an option to do rename detection with walking the commit chain?
>
> Have fun implementing that ;-).

I agree that it could be interesting to have a such thing. But that's
increndibly stupid and moreover a rare case.

--
Beber
#e.fr@freenode

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Olivier Galibert]

On Fri, May 05, 2006 at 08:15:41PM +0200, Petr Baudis wrote:
> The automatic vs. explicit movement tracking is a lot more
> controversial. Explicit movement tracking is pretty easy to provide for
> file-level movements, it's just that the user says "I _did_ move file
> A to file B" (I never got the Linus' argument that the user has no idea
> - he just _performed_ the move, also explicitly, by calling *mv).

In one of my projects 99% or the renames are "done" when unzipping the
source release of the next version.  Explicit tracking would be
unbearable, frankly.

And once you have a good enough implicit tracking, why bother with an
explicit one?

  OG.

[ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

  Hi,

  I have just set up a (fairly crude, but hey, it seems to work) wiki at

	http://git.or.cz/gitwiki

  It's slow and ugly but if it becomes popular, I will move it to
something better than Apache CGI. ;-) I also haven't written more than
an introductory paragraph on the front page, the rest is up to you.

  I'm personally not exceptionally fond of wikis (other than Wikipedia)
but a wish to have one has been expressed several times and I hope it
will be helpful for the Git community; not only the newbies might dig
(and especially exchange!) some useful information, tips'n'trick and
such.  Ideally, it could become a melting pot for the Documentation/
directories or the rather austere (I take patches) Git homepage - or
something entirely different. Whatever _you_ make from it.

  Editally yours,

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:

>   I'm personally not exceptionally fond of wikis (other than Wikipedia)
> but a wish to have one has been expressed several times and I hope it
> will be helpful for the Git community; not only the newbies might dig
> (and especially exchange!) some useful information, tips'n'trick and
> such.  Ideally, it could become a melting pot for the Documentation/
> directories or the rather austere (I take patches) Git homepage - or
> something entirely different. Whatever _you_ make from it.

Thanks for doing this.  I am not a Wiki person myself, and
would rather want to see we have useful and authoritative bits
in the Documentation set, but this would help the community.

I'd love to see somebody volunteer to act as an editor to feed
cooked topics for inclusion of the Documentation/ set.  Anybody?

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> writes:
>
> >   I'm personally not exceptionally fond of wikis (other than Wikipedia)
> > but a wish to have one has been expressed several times and I hope it
> > will be helpful for the Git community; not only the newbies might dig
> > (and especially exchange!) some useful information, tips'n'trick and
> > such.  Ideally, it could become a melting pot for the Documentation/
> > directories or the rather austere (I take patches) Git homepage - or
> > something entirely different. Whatever _you_ make from it.
>
> Thanks for doing this.  I am not a Wiki person myself, and
> would rather want to see we have useful and authoritative bits
> in the Documentation set, but this would help the community.
>
> I'd love to see somebody volunteer to act as an editor to feed
> cooked topics for inclusion of the Documentation/ set.  Anybody?

Junio, would be possible for you to write a Roadmap in a Wiki page,
similar to what Mercurial did here:
http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/RoadMap ?

BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
(they choose Mercurial).

Ciao,

--
Paolo
http://paolociarrocchi.googlepages.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
> On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> >I'd love to see somebody volunteer to act as an editor to feed
> >cooked topics for inclusion of the Documentation/ set.  Anybody?

I think this has time and someone might emerge naturally.

> Junio, would be possible for you to write a Roadmap in a Wiki page,
> similar to what Mercurial did here:
> http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/RoadMap ?

You can already find a similar (albeit a bit more low-level) document at

	http://kernel.org/git/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;hb=todo;f=TODO

but you can certainly add a link to it to the wiki. ;-)

> BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
> (they choose Mercurial).

I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
whatever they actually _are_).

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 5/3/06, Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> wrote:
> Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
> where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
> > On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> > >I'd love to see somebody volunteer to act as an editor to feed
> > >cooked topics for inclusion of the Documentation/ set.  Anybody?
>
> I think this has time and someone might emerge naturally.
>
> > Junio, would be possible for you to write a Roadmap in a Wiki page,
> > similar to what Mercurial did here:
> > http://www.selenic.com/mercurial/wiki/index.cgi/RoadMap ?
>
> You can already find a similar (albeit a bit more low-level) document at
>
>         http://kernel.org/git/?p=git/git.git;a=blob;hb=todo;f=TODO
>
> but you can certainly add a link to it to the wiki. ;-)

I was looking for something more "high level but I'll try to add that
link to the wiki as soon as I back home from work.

> > BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
> > (they choose Mercurial).
>
> I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
> whatever they actually _are_).

I only found the announcement, not the rationales.

Ciao,

--
Paolo
http://paolociarrocchi.googlepages.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Nicolas Pitre]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> On 5/3/06, Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> wrote:
> > Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
> > where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
> > > On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> > > 
> > > BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
> > > (they choose Mercurial).
> > 
> > I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
> > whatever they actually _are_).
> 
> I only found the announcement, not the rationales.

http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/tools-discuss/2006-April/000366.html

Looks like they didn't buy the argument about the uselessness of 
recording file renames.


Nicolas

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Shawn Pearce]

Nicolas Pitre <nico@cam.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> > On 5/3/06, Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> wrote:
> > > Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
> > > where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
> > > > On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
> > > > (they choose Mercurial).
> > > 
> > > I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
> > > whatever they actually _are_).
> > 
> > I only found the announcement, not the rationales.
> 
> http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/tools-discuss/2006-April/000366.html
> 
> Looks like they didn't buy the argument about the uselessness of 
> recording file renames.

The final evaluations are available from here (at the very bottom
of the page):

  http://opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/

It looks like Mercurial doesn't support renames either, but a lot
of users are asking for it to be supported.  So I don't think that's
the reason.  It looks more like they didn't enjoy porting GIT 1.2.2
(as 1.2.4 was found to not work in all cases) to Solaris and the
tester ran into some problems with the conflict resolution support.

My own reading of the two final evaluations for GIT and Mercurial
leaves me feeling like GIT is a more mature tool which is faster
and more stable then Mercurial.  GIT seemed to be more reliable
during testing then Mercurial was, despite the cloning issue.
Which makes me surprised that OpenSolaris selected Mercurial instead.


-- 
Shawn.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Andreas Ericsson]

Shawn Pearce wrote:
> Nicolas Pitre <nico@cam.org> wrote:
> 
>>On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
>>
>>>On 5/3/06, Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
>>>>where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
>>>>
>>>>>On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
>>>>>(they choose Mercurial).
>>>>
>>>>I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
>>>>whatever they actually _are_).
>>>
>>>I only found the announcement, not the rationales.
>>
>>http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/tools-discuss/2006-April/000366.html
>>
>>Looks like they didn't buy the argument about the uselessness of 
>>recording file renames.
> 
> 
> The final evaluations are available from here (at the very bottom
> of the page):
> 
>   http://opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/
> 
> It looks like Mercurial doesn't support renames either, but a lot
> of users are asking for it to be supported.  So I don't think that's
> the reason.  It looks more like they didn't enjoy porting GIT 1.2.2
> (as 1.2.4 was found to not work in all cases) to Solaris and the
> tester ran into some problems with the conflict resolution support.
> 
> My own reading of the two final evaluations for GIT and Mercurial
> leaves me feeling like GIT is a more mature tool which is faster
> and more stable then Mercurial.  GIT seemed to be more reliable
> during testing then Mercurial was, despite the cloning issue.
> Which makes me surprised that OpenSolaris selected Mercurial instead.
> 

Considering Sun's CEO's common comments on Solaris' superiority over 
Linux I think it's safe to assume that the same CEO wouldn't exactly 
jump of joy if his employees started depending on a tool fathered by Linus.

No offence intended to Mercurial or its developers. Although I don't 
know anything about how it works I'm fairly sure Sun's developers would 
never agree to be forced to use an inferior tool (congrats Mercurial 
devs). However, I *do* think that in a tie-break Mercurial would win for 
political reasons.

-- 
Andreas Ericsson                   andreas.ericsson@op5.se
OP5 AB                             www.op5.se
Tel: +46 8-230225                  Fax: +46 8-230231

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 5/3/06, Andreas Ericsson <ae@op5.se> wrote:
> >>On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> >>
> >>>On 5/3/06, Petr Baudis <pasky@suse.cz> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:39:07AM CEST, I got a letter
> >>>>where Paolo Ciarrocchi <paolo.ciarrocchi@gmail.com> said that...
> >>>>
> >>>>>On 5/3/06, Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>BTW, do you know why GIT has not been selected as SCM for OpenSolaris?
> >>>>>(they choose Mercurial).
> >>>>
> >>>>I think it's explained somewhere in their forums (or mailing lists or
> >>>>whatever they actually _are_).
> >>>
> >>>I only found the announcement, not the rationales.
> >>
> >>http://mail.opensolaris.org/pipermail/tools-discuss/2006-April/000366.html
> >>
> >>Looks like they didn't buy the argument about the uselessness of
> >>recording file renames.
> >
> >
> > The final evaluations are available from here (at the very bottom
> > of the page):
> >
> >   http://opensolaris.org/os/community/tools/scm/
> >
> > It looks like Mercurial doesn't support renames either, but a lot
> > of users are asking for it to be supported.  So I don't think that's
> > the reason.  It looks more like they didn't enjoy porting GIT 1.2.2
> > (as 1.2.4 was found to not work in all cases) to Solaris and the
> > tester ran into some problems with the conflict resolution support.
> >
> > My own reading of the two final evaluations for GIT and Mercurial
> > leaves me feeling like GIT is a more mature tool which is faster
> > and more stable then Mercurial.  GIT seemed to be more reliable
> > during testing then Mercurial was, despite the cloning issue.
> > Which makes me surprised that OpenSolaris selected Mercurial instead.
> >
>

Would be fantastic to see a fair comparison of the two tools but I
can't find anything useful on the web.

--
Paolo
http://paolociarrocchi.googlepages.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:

> Would be fantastic to see a fair comparison of the two tools but I
> can't find anything useful on the web.

Three tools: Git/Cogito, Mercurial and Monotone.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Andreas Ericsson wrote:
> 
> Considering Sun's CEO's common comments on Solaris' superiority over Linux I
> think it's safe to assume that the same CEO wouldn't exactly jump of joy if
> his employees started depending on a tool fathered by Linus.

I doubt it went that high up, but with any kind of politics it's obviously 
possible that somebody consciously or unconsciously felt it might become a 
political problem, and it might have made a difference.

However, I think the _real_ issue is that Mercurial has a much nicer 
introductory phase. The standard mercurial web-page is so much more 
professional and nice to look at than any git page I have ever seen, and 
let's face it: first looks _do_ count.

Also, the fact that Solaris had the unfortunate bug with signals probably 
didn't much help to endear git to them, since it made it look like git had 
problems. Never mind that we solved it - I think it took us a while to 
even realize that Solaris had a problem, because we weren't intimately 
involved.

Which brings me to the final point, which is that I think the hg team was 
very active and supporting, perhaps Matt himself. That's _important_ - the 
OpenSolaris people probably felt very comfortable with strong support from 
the developers. It can often be _the_ best (and biggest) reason to choose 
any product - regardless of anything else.

Even if I think the git mailing list itself is very responsive, I think 
the hg people were just more directly and actively involved. For git, they 
had to come to us.

I also suspect that some people find python scripts somewhat less 
intimidating than C. I'll also happily admit that my coding standards tend 
to lean towards the "sparse" when it comes to comments, and I much prefer 
the "small and well-named functions" approach, and git seems to have stuck 
to that with Junio. Which just turns some people off.

So I don't think you need politics to explain it. I think hg is doing 
quite well. It took some different design decisions, and while I 
personally think the git ones are better, I'm somewhat biased ;)

			Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 5/3/06, Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Andreas Ericsson wrote:
> >
> > Considering Sun's CEO's common comments on Solaris' superiority over Linux I
> > think it's safe to assume that the same CEO wouldn't exactly jump of joy if
> > his employees started depending on a tool fathered by Linus.
>
> I doubt it went that high up, but with any kind of politics it's obviously
> possible that somebody consciously or unconsciously felt it might become a
> political problem, and it might have made a difference.
>
> However, I think the _real_ issue is that Mercurial has a much nicer
> introductory phase. The standard mercurial web-page is so much more
> professional and nice to look at than any git page I have ever seen, and
> let's face it: first looks _do_ count.

I can only agree.

I'm not a git developer, I'm even not a _real_ developer, I only hack
for fun during my very poor spare time but web pages, wiki and
introduction offered by Mercurial are really a lot nicer to what git
is offering at the moment.

Perhaps is just a silly idea, but would be possible for OSDL to host a
web site (www.git.org) where we can host pages/wiki an so on?

Ciao,
--
Paolo
http://paolociarrocchi.googlepages.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> 
> Perhaps is just a silly idea, but would be possible for OSDL to host a
> web site (www.git.org) where we can host pages/wiki an so on?

I don't think hosting it would be a problem (it probably would be the same 
kernel.org thing - OSDL is partly involved in maintaining it). The problem 
is the content, and the artistic talent.

_I_ personally have what I'd call "negative artistic talent". I think I'm 
occasionally good at designing beautiful data structures (and I think git 
is that, including the pack-files), but that clearly doesn't translate to 
any visual ability what-so-ever. None. Nada. Zilch.

Maybe the new Wiki can evolve into that. It sure looks better today than 
it looked yesterday (now, when I first saw it, it was so ugly that I had 
to dig my eyeballs out with a spoon, so that's not necessarily saying all 
that much ;)

		Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Linus Torvalds wrote:

> 
> 
> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
>> 
>> Perhaps is just a silly idea, but would be possible for OSDL to host a
>> web site (www.git.org) where we can host pages/wiki an so on?
> 
> I don't think hosting it would be a problem (it probably would be the same
> kernel.org thing - OSDL is partly involved in maintaining it). The problem
> is the content, and the artistic talent.

As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
course what is in official Git Documentation/

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Paolo Ciarrocchi]

On 5/3/06, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:
> Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 May 2006, Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:
> >>
> >> Perhaps is just a silly idea, but would be possible for OSDL to host a
> >> web site (www.git.org) where we can host pages/wiki an so on?
> >
> > I don't think hosting it would be a problem (it probably would be the same
> > kernel.org thing - OSDL is partly involved in maintaining it). The problem
> > is the content, and the artistic talent.
>
> As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
> and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
> course what is in official Git Documentation/

I just added the TODO list link but I'm not a wiki expert, if you know
how to link to the article from Wikipedia please do it ;-)

Ciao,
--
Paolo
http://paolociarrocchi.googlepages.com

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Jakub Narebski]

Paolo Ciarrocchi wrote:

> On 5/3/06, Jakub Narebski <jnareb@gmail.com> wrote:

>> As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
>> and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating
>> of course what is in official Git Documentation/
> 
> I just added the TODO list link but I'm not a wiki expert, if you know
> how to link to the article from Wikipedia please do it ;-)

I thought about copying contents, not making a link to WikiPedia article.
I tried to make InterWiki link, WikiPedia:Git_(software) but MoinMoin engine
doesn't deal well with parentheses.

-- 
Jakub Narebski
Warsaw, Poland

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[David Lang]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Jakub Narebski wrote:

> As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
> and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
> course what is in official Git Documentation/

please go ahead and put a lot of the info that is in the GIT 
Documentation/ on the wiki. it's far easier to go to one site and browse 
around to find things then to run into issues where you have to go 
somewhere else (with different tools) to find the info.

even if you just put all the documentation files there, as-is (as text 
files even, no hyperlinks in them) they should still be there.

David Lang

-- 
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.
  -- C.A.R. Hoare

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:21:54PM CEST, I got a letter
where David Lang <dlang@digitalinsight.com> said that...
> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Jakub Narebski wrote:
> 
> >As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
> >and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
> >course what is in official Git Documentation/
> 
> please go ahead and put a lot of the info that is in the GIT 
> Documentation/ on the wiki. it's far easier to go to one site and browse 
> around to find things then to run into issues where you have to go 
> somewhere else (with different tools) to find the info.
> 
> even if you just put all the documentation files there, as-is (as text 
> files even, no hyperlinks in them) they should still be there.

Then who will keep it in sync (BOTH ways)? That would be quite a lot of
work, I think.

That said, having the documentation in a wiki is not a bad idea per se,
but you need to keep things consistent and converging. And I believe
(and hope) that killing Documentation/ directory is no option - I hate
it when documentation of software I installed just tells me "look at
this URI" (which documents a different version anyway, and it's all very
useful when I'm sitting in a train with my notebook).

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[David Lang]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Petr Baudis wrote:

> Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:21:54PM CEST, I got a letter
> where David Lang <dlang@digitalinsight.com> said that...
>> On Wed, 3 May 2006, Jakub Narebski wrote:
>>
>>> As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
>>> and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
>>> course what is in official Git Documentation/
>>
>> please go ahead and put a lot of the info that is in the GIT
>> Documentation/ on the wiki. it's far easier to go to one site and browse
>> around to find things then to run into issues where you have to go
>> somewhere else (with different tools) to find the info.
>>
>> even if you just put all the documentation files there, as-is (as text
>> files even, no hyperlinks in them) they should still be there.
>
> Then who will keep it in sync (BOTH ways)? That would be quite a lot of
> work, I think.
>
> That said, having the documentation in a wiki is not a bad idea per se,
> but you need to keep things consistent and converging. And I believe
> (and hope) that killing Documentation/ directory is no option - I hate
> it when documentation of software I installed just tells me "look at
> this URI" (which documents a different version anyway, and it's all very
> useful when I'm sitting in a train with my notebook).

I agree with this completely.

as for keeping it in sync, the ideal situation would be for a 
documentation manager to take that job ;-) but lacking that just put the 
documentation in a non-editable page somewhere and link to it from the 
wiki (this could even be pages at kernel.org or wherever you have the raw 
source available outside of git itself)

David Lang

-- 
There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies.
  -- C.A.R. Hoare

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:46:33PM CEST, I got a letter
where David Lang <dlang@digitalinsight.com> said that...
> as for keeping it in sync, the ideal situation would be for a 
> documentation manager to take that job ;-) but lacking that just put the 
> documentation in a non-editable page somewhere and link to it from the 
> wiki (this could even be pages at kernel.org or wherever you have the raw 
> source available outside of git itself)

Well, that one is pretty easy.

	http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/
	http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/cogito/docs/

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Petr Baudis wrote:

> Dear diary, on Wed, May 03, 2006 at 09:21:54PM CEST, I got a letter
> where David Lang <dlang@digitalinsight.com> said that...
> > On Wed, 3 May 2006, Jakub Narebski wrote:
> > 
> > >As to content, we could I think use material found at Wikipedia Git page,
> > >and on External Links in Wikipedia Git_(software) article, not repeating of
> > >course what is in official Git Documentation/
> > 
> > please go ahead and put a lot of the info that is in the GIT 
> > Documentation/ on the wiki. it's far easier to go to one site and browse 
> > around to find things then to run into issues where you have to go 
> > somewhere else (with different tools) to find the info.
> > 
> > even if you just put all the documentation files there, as-is (as text 
> > files even, no hyperlinks in them) they should still be there.
> 
> Then who will keep it in sync (BOTH ways)? That would be quite a lot of
> work, I think.
> 
> That said, having the documentation in a wiki is not a bad idea per se,
> but you need to keep things consistent and converging. And I believe
> (and hope) that killing Documentation/ directory is no option - I hate
> it when documentation of software I installed just tells me "look at
> this URI" (which documents a different version anyway, and it's all very
> useful when I'm sitting in a train with my notebook).

Clearly the solution is a wiki with a git backend and asciidoc for the 
formatting language. Then the wiki just has to pull from kernel.org 
occasionally, and Junio can pull from the wiki's repository when there are 
good changes there.

I'm actually only somewhat joking; I wrote a Python CGI for this at one 
point, and got as far as having it basically work, but then I couldn't 
come up with a way to safely use asciidoc to format an attacker's file.

	-Daniel
*This .sig left intentionally blank*

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Theodore Tso]

Mercurial also has an easier learning curve; and while the "Everyday
Git with 20 commands or so" is a very good document, and I've found it
invaluable for getting started, if you compare it to the "Quick Start
for the Impatient" page on the front page of the Mercurial Wiki, for
many people Mercurial will *appear* to be an order of magitude simpler
and is yet powerful enough for their project.

Of course, a lot of it is that git *is* much more powerful, much like
the difference between a stickshift with a racing clutch (git) and a
car with an automatic transmission (hg).  So maybe one thing that
would help git would be a stronger emphasis of cogito for those
projects that don't need the full power of using git "straight up".

Just a thought....

						- Ted

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Theodore Tso wrote:
> 
> Of course, a lot of it is that git *is* much more powerful, much like
> the difference between a stickshift with a racing clutch (git) and a
> car with an automatic transmission (hg).

I don't think that's necessarily a good comparison.

The "easy things" are easy even with git. Our explanation pages and 
tutorials just tend to want to show off, and do more than they need to. 

Even the "everyday git in 20 commands" actually starts out scaring people 
with listing commands that they don't need to know about immediately. The 
whole fsck/count-object/pruning thing shouldn't even be mentioned until 
after you've shown how easy it is to just do

	git init-db
	git add .
	git commit -a

to import an old project, and then do an example commit or something 
(one of the early examples).

So yeah. We should have a main page that starts off with the "everyday 
git" link (preferably further simplified) very prominently, and just looks 
less scary.

People are probably already expecting the worst - partly because git is 
newer than some of the other projects (not hg, but svn/svk/monotone etc), 
and partly because I was actively trying to not over-promise or over-sell 
early on when it wasn't clear how good git was going to get..

So looking pretty and easy to use is clearly important, and I think git 
has the _capability_ for that, we've not just documented it that way.

			Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Theodore Tso]

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:06:25AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Even the "everyday git in 20 commands" actually starts out scaring people 
> with listing commands that they don't need to know about immediately. The 
> whole fsck/count-object/pruning thing shouldn't even be mentioned until 
> after you've shown how easy it is to just do
> 
> 	git init-db
> 	git add .
> 	git commit -a
> 
> to import an old project, and then do an example commit or something 
> (one of the early examples).

Yeah, but the fact that you have to use repack and prune in order to
keep the disk space usage from exploding (especially with the Linux
2.6 tree) , means that we have to expose that mess to the beginning
user.  Could git be made to do the repacking automatically when it
makes sense using some hueristic algorithm?

						- Ted

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Theodore Tso wrote:
> 
> Yeah, but the fact that you have to use repack and prune in order to
> keep the disk space usage from exploding (especially with the Linux
> 2.6 tree) , means that we have to expose that mess to the beginning
> user.

No you don't. You get it packed when it's cloned, and the disk usage 
doesn't go up _that_ fast. By the time you need to worry about disk usage 
you have certainly had time to learn the basics.

No need to start talking about fsck or repacking until the second day.

> Could git be made to do the repacking automatically when it makes sense 
> using some hueristic algorithm?

This was discussed, and yeah, it _could_, but I suspect you really don't 
want to repack in the middle of some op. Even if your repo was _mostly_ 
packed, it's an irritating hickup at a time when you don't need to.

I think it's much better to teach people to repack once a week (if that). 
But to teach them only after they've already _used_ it for a week and 
aren't intimidated by the basic ops any longer.

		Linus

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Sam Ravnborg]

On Wed, May 03, 2006 at 10:06:25AM -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> Even the "everyday git in 20 commands" actually starts out scaring people 
> with listing commands that they don't need to know about immediately.

20 commands is much more than I use in my daily use of git.

Lets see:
git clone
git diff
git reset --hard
git ls-files
git grep
git add
git rm
cg-commit
cg-restore
git push
git am

I may have missed one or two - but this is it. Lees then 20.
And I never use pack or fsck.

It is not that difficult. A few cogito commands creeped in also. I just
find them easier to use.

In other words - the tutorials are covering too much as stated by
others.

	Sam

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Thu, May 04, 2006 at 12:39:32AM CEST, I got a letter
where Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org> said that...
> 20 commands is much more than I use in my daily use of git.
> 
> Lets see:
> git clone
> git diff
> git reset --hard
> git ls-files
> git grep
> git add
> git rm
> cg-commit
> cg-restore
> git push
> git am

I think git ls-files isn't used directly very frequently. OTOH, you
don't use cg-log or git log and cg-status/git status? :) Also, most
people will pull.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Joel Becker]

On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 12:46:45AM +0200, Petr Baudis wrote:
> I think git ls-files isn't used directly very frequently. OTOH, you
> don't use cg-log or git log and cg-status/git status? :) Also, most
> people will pull.

	I use git ls-files, becuase it's the only way I know how to
blow away dirty state that added files.  I ran into this just yesterday,
actually.  git checkout -f won't remove files that are unknown.

    $ git ls-files -o | xargs rm -rf

Joel

-- 

Life's Little Instruction Book #452

	"Never compromise your integrity."

Joel Becker
Principal Software Developer
Oracle
E-mail: joel.becker@oracle.com
Phone: (650) 506-8127

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Petr Baudis]

Dear diary, on Thu, May 04, 2006 at 12:50:56AM CEST, I got a letter
where Joel Becker <Joel.Becker@oracle.com> said that...
> On Thu, May 04, 2006 at 12:46:45AM +0200, Petr Baudis wrote:
> > I think git ls-files isn't used directly very frequently. OTOH, you
> > don't use cg-log or git log and cg-status/git status? :) Also, most
> > people will pull.
> 
> 	I use git ls-files, becuase it's the only way I know how to
> blow away dirty state that added files.  I ran into this just yesterday,
> actually.  git checkout -f won't remove files that are unknown.
> 
>     $ git ls-files -o | xargs rm -rf

You can use cg-clean, and I think Git has got git-clean added recently.

-- 
				Petr "Pasky" Baudis
Stuff: http://pasky.or.cz/
Right now I am having amnesia and deja-vu at the same time.  I think
I have forgotten this before.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Daniel Barkalow]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Theodore Tso wrote:

> Mercurial also has an easier learning curve; and while the "Everyday
> Git with 20 commands or so" is a very good document, and I've found it
> invaluable for getting started, if you compare it to the "Quick Start
> for the Impatient" page on the front page of the Mercurial Wiki, for
> many people Mercurial will *appear* to be an order of magitude simpler
> and is yet powerful enough for their project.

Actually, we could almost steal their QuickStart, replace "hg" with "git", 
and have it actually be correct.

Setting up public access follows a slightly different pattern, but 
otherwise, all of the operations on that page are identical or simpler in 
git than as given in that document, AFAICT.

	-Daniel
*This .sig left intentionally blank*

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[sean]

On Wed, 3 May 2006 12:47:32 -0400
Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu> wrote:

> Of course, a lot of it is that git *is* much more powerful, much like
> the difference between a stickshift with a racing clutch (git) and a
> car with an automatic transmission (hg).  So maybe one thing that
> would help git would be a stronger emphasis of cogito for those
> projects that don't need the full power of using git "straight up".

The docs and higher-level user commands can still use some work, but
telling people they have to install and learn an entire extra layer
isn't going to win many converts.  Personally I think Git needs a bit
more polish and to stop thinking of itself as mostly plumbing.  Even so
Git really has become pretty good at making simple things simple:

init-db, add/rm, commit -a,
status, show, log, gitk, diff,
branch, checkout, clone, fetch/pull

The fact that it's faster, requires less disk space, and has all the
lower level tools you need to do "complex stuff", should make it a
tempting choice once the remaining rough edges are removed.
But there is nothing inherently complex about Git.

Sean

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org> writes:

> Which brings me to the final point, which is that I think the hg team was 
> very active and supporting, perhaps Matt himself. That's _important_ - the 
> OpenSolaris people probably felt very comfortable with strong support from 
> the developers. It can often be _the_ best (and biggest) reason to choose 
> any product - regardless of anything else.

I agree with this 100%.  I happened to be talking with Eric
about the clone breakage he was having on #git channel, and I
asked him to help me diagnose the problem, which resulted in the
solution we saw on the list.  It turned out to be the same
"1.2.2 works but 1.2.4 not" problem OpenSolaris evaluator was
having.  I was never contacted from somebody in the OpenSolaris
circle during the whole exercise.

But reading their Mercurial report apparently suggests that
their hg evaluator was with direct contact with the right
community from early on.  I still do not even know (I've seen it
once in _their_ report) who the git evaluator on their end was.
I am not surprised that the difference in depth of involvements
and contact between the development community and the respective
evaluator contributed to the result in a major way.

> Even if I think the git mailing list itself is very responsive, I think 
> the hg people were just more directly and actively involved. For git, they 
> had to come to us.

That is _very_ unfair to me.  It is not like git and hg both
submitted proposals to be chosen by them and then we dropped the
ball by not supporting them properly.  They have to come to us.

The time I personally became aware about their DSCM selection
contest was when its initial phase was almost over; even if I
were willing to help them, it was too late.  And no, I do not
have enough time to go fishing for such opportunities everywhere
to help many random projects, either.

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Junio C Hamano]

Junio C Hamano <junkio@cox.net> writes:

> I agree with this 100%.  I happened to be talking with Eric
> about the clone breakage he was having on #git channel, and I

Sorry, my memory is failing.  It was Oejet I was talking with.
 

Re: [ANNOUNCE] Git wiki

[Linus Torvalds]

On Wed, 3 May 2006, Junio C Hamano wrote:
> 
> > Even if I think the git mailing list itself is very responsive, I think 
> > the hg people were just more directly and actively involved. For git, they 
> > had to come to us.
> 
> That is _very_ unfair to me.  It is not like git and hg both
> submitted proposals to be chosen by them and then we dropped the
> ball by not supporting them properly.  They have to come to us.

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it in that way. Of _course_ they should have come 
to us with their issues.

So I don't think git was doing anything wrong there, I was just stating it 
as a neutral fact, rather than any criticism - the hg people were involved 
(and I think they were pushing it), and the git people weren't, because 
they never came to us.

Not a big deal. I actually think we'll be better off with some competition 
to keep us on our toes.

			Linus