From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from fout-a8-smtp.messagingengine.com (fout-a8-smtp.messagingengine.com [103.168.172.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54F7520C00C for ; Tue, 11 Nov 2025 10:13:06 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=103.168.172.151 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1762855989; cv=none; b=dzahGwiXwbC6hn619M2xO5/5XeSL7rovMP//Mel/fHw0pHMGrSnl08Fj+y/o+XiaFJcTgzJycwrL8NCI/4Hvo5ZfRfHm1sUnCDBQPLHGWIWtJDyUM5R9TQPAlBKSPYl2Bj0U8ztPR7QoDTWiMe97X1/LL/gFghO2+4Tod3Zg4Fk= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1762855989; c=relaxed/simple; bh=DkYjsibuTSPDZ37TU474qB3mo3Py96H4lpaTeNlgohI=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:Message-ID: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=po0Nul6HW8UQkz1Yx8fXtwupBzsgbcVQRcmBS1ygDtgRokAdViLGwVo6ktmrnc1xmGh4C88j9dYoCd1tHO08/I2lRf4723m3wGT5FzPC9Z2qyNyLOTnIPN/OiH0c7KLvDblo0dlBSI2kG81v1tPnHOCTCUwCHAdbJ14wAOLLgto= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=pobox.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=pobox.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pobox.com header.i=@pobox.com header.b=nqSHJIbp; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b=0PzVMMG6; arc=none smtp.client-ip=103.168.172.151 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=pobox.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=pobox.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=pobox.com header.i=@pobox.com header.b="nqSHJIbp"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.i=@messagingengine.com header.b="0PzVMMG6" Received: from phl-compute-09.internal (phl-compute-09.internal [10.202.2.49]) by mailfout.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74EE8EC01E9; Tue, 11 Nov 2025 05:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from phl-frontend-01 ([10.202.2.160]) by phl-compute-09.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 11 Nov 2025 05:13:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=cc :cc:content-type:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to :in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1762855985; x=1762942385; bh=MCDpT+hjTG ardaX9vZNEvTwNfElhUSHbMaY49f51EVE=; b=nqSHJIbpHZKMzpbxpdpr88mAKA nD8NfTx1FxtcJ8Dkd4Mcr1dUxm/9/i8w6lVy5gIBoNdIDjsSkQTVbQlB/+k09gG3 IpMy+OfoI6IcI9ddJTZUskIOTA+7/zqMmA4LwmFf06rID4cBgDY/AzWd67IViI8F lzPM/VPYqAO/4NKXjapuoYaVsmFXwCGC5aLE+WBIpqI+6P8sYGrTy5CLp1yunQEi HUsugwqhSgMDtWskoFetikgyA0bjwS+5RoGYgplJUTEE0iB+8JSy7TiVh1t9vvRR TA3HwCuHqik5c8qDNvjUt80b0pU3Z2GnQkafDA90lWEsbT7Ta0tEQPZabVCg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:content-type:date:date :feedback-id:feedback-id:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:subject:subject:to :to:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t= 1762855985; x=1762942385; bh=MCDpT+hjTGardaX9vZNEvTwNfElhUSHbMaY 49f51EVE=; b=0PzVMMG6XYZQl3OzIn9mXJDb6H3xAIX7RBlK2lW9oyTCTtlwwA1 5Lr3qigeJOFu1WQJyFkaTJ9jNBJiCweMSh44H406N923mBHvjCFi5vq8NyZKE5T7 YLocKcSYhJedRxjgzbJ2Nd/Ex0JwYDC/6pP7zn3Beb1c6ihsa9Ra2a1K+sC4NfYs tLEL+ffc0VhdthN4wTc5aNyczgeUaVtFzBPGxrDuAvsZtm7QPYyocSGxKK6nJydQ XOG6oZ9siJCVopdo9r6rq2gTQbVIxu6p3hOGxcGmNNqKUlI8IfX+xUyRI/ynzSRh b0AC0rF9zXegu5jKNJ1Q2hQmZxwWk2j/maA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtdeggddvtddtledvucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceu rghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujf gurhephffvvefujghffffkfgggtgesthdtredttdertdenucfhrhhomheplfhunhhiohcu vecujfgrmhgrnhhouceoghhithhsthgvrhesphhosghogidrtghomheqnecuggftrfgrth htvghrnhepfeevteetjeehueegffelvdetieevffeufeejleeuffetiefggfeftdfhfeei geeinecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepgh hithhsthgvrhesphhosghogidrtghomhdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepjedpmhhouggvpehs mhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepjhhulhhirgesjhhvnhhsrdgtrgdprhgtphhtthhope gsvghnrdhknhhosghlvgesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehgihhtghhithhg rggughgvthesghhmrghilhdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopehgihhtsehvghgvrhdrkhgvrh hnvghlrdhorhhgpdhrtghpthhtohepkhhrihhsthhofhhfvghrhhgruhhgshgsrghkkhes fhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhmpdhrtghpthhtohepphhssehpkhhsrdhimhdprhgtphhtth hopehgihhtshhtvghrsehpohgsohigrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: if26b431b:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 11 Nov 2025 05:13:04 -0500 (EST) From: Junio C Hamano To: "Julia Evans" Cc: "D. Ben Knoble" , "Julia Evans" , git@vger.kernel.org, "Kristoffer Haugsbakk" , "Patrick Steinhardt" Subject: Re: [PATCH v6] doc: add an explanation of Git's data model In-Reply-To: <150f3442-93a6-4469-9c25-5bca24accc80@app.fastmail.com> (Julia Evans's message of "Mon, 10 Nov 2025 10:56:03 -0500") References: <150f3442-93a6-4469-9c25-5bca24accc80@app.fastmail.com> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2025 02:13:03 -0800 Message-ID: User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: git@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "Julia Evans" writes: > Like you noticed in the tag object section, I think saying that the tag > object "refers to an object" works well in that context, but in the context > of explaining what a branch is it makes the text more confusing. Sorry, but I do not understand your objection, as I cannot see what confusion it would bring in in saying "a ref refers to an object" (or "a branch refers to a commit object"). A ref refers to an object, just like a tag field in a tag object or a tree-entry in a tree object refer to another object. They do so by recording the name of the object they refer to. So what's so confusing if we said that straight? Are you saying that the noun "reference" (or "ref") is a sufficient clue to readers that their objective is to "refer to" something, so "refers to" is a redundant thing to say? Maybe its just me, but I find it a quite roundabout thing to say that a ref refers to an object name (or "ID" if you like), simply because name or ID *is* a way to refer to the thing that is assigned that name, so you are making a ref to refer to something ("name") that refers to what it ("ref") originally wanted to refer to ("object"). That is what I find the most strange in the construction "A branch refers to ID" at the conceptual level. I am much less unhappy with "A branch records an ID", but stopping at that may make readers ask the obvious question "what goal does that design aim to achieve?" (whose answer is of course "to refer to the object that is assigned that ID"). "A branch refers to a commit object by recording its object name", "A branch records the ID of a commit it refers to", "A branch records the ID of the commit at the tip of its history". Any of the phrasing that does not make "ID" the object/target of the verb "refer to" would work to avoid that strange construction. By the way, Ben used a word "unwelcome", but the words that are more appropriate to describe my reaction were "frustrated" (for not being able to explain what I know to be true clearly to make others understand) and "disappointed".