* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-06 13:25 ` [Xen-devel] " Ian Campbell
@ 2013-11-06 14:04 ` Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
2013-11-06 16:06 ` Ian Campbell
2013-11-06 14:09 ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-07 2:48 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko @ 2013-11-06 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian Campbell; +Cc: The development of GRUB 2, xen-devel@lists.xen.org
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On 06.11.2013 14:25, Ian Campbell wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 14:00 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> wrote:
>> Hello, all. I've ported grub2 to x86_64-xen and i386-xen (PAE only). How
>> big is the difference between ARM and i386 when seen as pv guest?
>
> Very. Xen on ARM uses hardware functionality for second stage paging, so
> there is far less porting to do.
>
Well doesn't matter much for GRUB as we change paging only at init,
before handoff and to init vfb. What about drivers?
>> I have an ARM here but it's a raspberry pi, so no support for xen. Are there
>> machines for under $100 on which xen runs?
>
> The current platforms are listed on
> http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions. The one
> which is sub $100 is the Allwinner sunxi based stuff. The native Linux
> support is community driven by the linux-sunxi.org folks and is
> progressing nicely.
>
> I've got a cubieboard2 (A20 based, <$100) which is a promising platform.
> I've mostly been trying to get (native) SATA going, so my Xen
> experiments are a bit lightweight, but it does boot. Bamvor has reported
> success with using the MMC and documented it on the wiki. I think he's
> using an A31 based STB of some sort.
>
Thanks for info, I'll look into it.
>> What's with 64-bit ARM?
>
> TBH I thought the GRuB On ARM stuff was mainly targeting 64-bit (at
> least within Linaro). Do you have native grub on 32-bit ARM already
> then?
>
GRUB on 32-bit ARM works. We have currently 2 ports:
arm-uboot:
I've tested it myself on Raspberry pi with U-boot and in qemu (not sure
which machine right now, I think vexpress) with u-boot
arm-efi:
Apparently works but have never been able to test it myself.
> As far as 64-bit hardware goes you will have a struggle finding any at
> all right now, nevermind for under $100.
>
> We should at some point be able to support the freely (as in beer)
> available Foundation model, but we don't right now.
>
>> Alternatively, I'll probably go for Google HP chromebook 11.
>
> I don;t know about this one, but previous chromebooks have proved a pain
> to get Xen onto, too hard to debug anything on them...
>
You need to solder couple of pins and connect them to raspberry pi. Or
get debug board.
>> Or may I have access to some server where I'd be able to run VMs with my
>> kernel (GRUB) and HDD?
>
> I'm afraid we don't here at least.
>
Pity, sth like this would aid OS porters greatly.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-06 14:04 ` Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
@ 2013-11-06 16:06 ` Ian Campbell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ian Campbell @ 2013-11-06 16:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
Cc: The development of GRUB 2, xen-devel@lists.xen.org
On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 15:04 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
wrote:
> On 06.11.2013 14:25, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 14:00 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> > wrote:
> >> Hello, all. I've ported grub2 to x86_64-xen and i386-xen (PAE only). How
> >> big is the difference between ARM and i386 when seen as pv guest?
> >
> > Very. Xen on ARM uses hardware functionality for second stage paging, so
> > there is far less porting to do.
> >
> Well doesn't matter much for GRUB as we change paging only at init,
> before handoff and to init vfb.
Right, I would expect this to all be mostly the same as native ARM even
when running under Xen.
> What about drivers?
They are the usual Xen PV drivers. There's some additional setup to
enable event channels etc which you won't have seen on PV x86, but it's
very similar to the PVHVM stuff stuff on x86.
> >> What's with 64-bit ARM?
> >
> > TBH I thought the GRuB On ARM stuff was mainly targeting 64-bit (at
> > least within Linaro). Do you have native grub on 32-bit ARM already
> > then?
> >
> GRUB on 32-bit ARM works. We have currently 2 ports:
> arm-uboot:
> I've tested it myself on Raspberry pi with U-boot and in qemu (not sure
> which machine right now, I think vexpress) with u-boot
> arm-efi:
> Apparently works but have never been able to test it myself.
Interesting, thanks.
> > As far as 64-bit hardware goes you will have a struggle finding any at
> > all right now, nevermind for under $100.
> >
> > We should at some point be able to support the freely (as in beer)
> > available Foundation model, but we don't right now.
> >
> >> Alternatively, I'll probably go for Google HP chromebook 11.
> >
> > I don;t know about this one, but previous chromebooks have proved a pain
> > to get Xen onto, too hard to debug anything on them...
> >
> You need to solder couple of pins and connect them to raspberry pi. Or
> get debug board.
Sounds much easier than the existing chromebooks then.
> >> Or may I have access to some server where I'd be able to run VMs with my
> >> kernel (GRUB) and HDD?
> >
> > I'm afraid we don't here at least.
> >
> Pity, sth like this would aid OS porters greatly.
This might be something which we can resolve once ARM stuff with virt
extensions becomes more prevalent and easy to get hold of. Although
perhaps by then the issue won't be so critical.
Ian.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-06 13:25 ` [Xen-devel] " Ian Campbell
2013-11-06 14:04 ` Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
@ 2013-11-06 14:09 ` Leif Lindholm
2013-11-06 16:05 ` Ian Campbell
2013-11-07 2:48 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Leif Lindholm @ 2013-11-06 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: The development of GNU GRUB
Cc: Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko,
xen-devel@lists.xen.org
On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 01:25:55PM +0000, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > What's with 64-bit ARM?
>
> TBH I thought the GRuB On ARM stuff was mainly targeting 64-bit (at
> least within Linaro). Do you have native grub on 32-bit ARM already
> then?
Linaro Enterprise Group (where I am) is now almost exclusively focusing
on 64-bit, but that only became the case after Connect in Dublin (July).
U-Boot on aarch32 was the first port, since that is what the first
available hardware was using. Then came UEFI on aarch64.
> As far as 64-bit hardware goes you will have a struggle finding any at
> all right now, nevermind for under $100.
>
> We should at some point be able to support the freely (as in beer)
> available Foundation model, but we don't right now.
There are instructions for how to build and run Tianocore edk2 (UEFI)
on it:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/tianocore/index.php?title=ArmPlatformPkg/AArch64
/
Leif
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-06 14:09 ` Leif Lindholm
@ 2013-11-06 16:05 ` Ian Campbell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ian Campbell @ 2013-11-06 16:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Leif Lindholm
Cc: The development of GNU GRUB, xen-devel@lists.xen.org,
Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 15:09 +0100, Leif Lindholm wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 06, 2013 at 01:25:55PM +0000, Ian Campbell wrote:
> > > What's with 64-bit ARM?
> >
> > TBH I thought the GRuB On ARM stuff was mainly targeting 64-bit (at
> > least within Linaro). Do you have native grub on 32-bit ARM already
> > then?
>
> Linaro Enterprise Group (where I am) is now almost exclusively focusing
> on 64-bit, but that only became the case after Connect in Dublin (July).
Ah, in Dublin I think I concluded that my previous understanding was
wrong, not that things were changing!
> U-Boot on aarch32 was the first port, since that is what the first
> available hardware was using. Then came UEFI on aarch64.
>
> > As far as 64-bit hardware goes you will have a struggle finding any at
> > all right now, nevermind for under $100.
> >
> > We should at some point be able to support the freely (as in beer)
> > available Foundation model, but we don't right now.
>
> There are instructions for how to build and run Tianocore edk2 (UEFI)
> on it:
> http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/tianocore/index.php?title=ArmPlatformPkg/AArch64
Thanks, that's useful, although by "we" there I meant Xen (still, useful
info).
Ian.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-06 13:25 ` [Xen-devel] " Ian Campbell
2013-11-06 14:04 ` Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
2013-11-06 14:09 ` Leif Lindholm
@ 2013-11-07 2:48 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
2013-11-07 10:15 ` Ian Campbell
2 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bamvor Jian Zhang @ 2013-11-07 2:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian Campbell, phcoder; +Cc: The development of GRUB 2, xen-devel@lists.xen.org
>>>Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@citrix.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 14:00 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> wrote:
> > Hello, all. I've ported grub2 to x86_64-xen and i386-xen (PAE only). How
> > big is the difference between ARM and i386 when seen as pv guest?
>
> Very. Xen on ARM uses hardware functionality for second stage paging, so
> there is far less porting to do.
>
> > I have an ARM here but it's a raspberry pi, so no support for xen. Are
> there
> > machines for under $100 on which xen runs?
>
> The current platforms are listed on
> http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions. The one
> which is sub $100 is the Allwinner sunxi based stuff. The native Linux
> support is community driven by the linux-sunxi.org folks and is
> progressing nicely.
>
> I've got a cubieboard2 (A20 based, <$100) which is a promising platform.
How about cubietruck? 2G memory plus 1G network is better than cb2. it is
about 90$.
> I've mostly been trying to get (native) SATA going, so my Xen
> experiments are a bit lightweight, but it does boot. Bamvor has reported
> success with using the MMC and documented it on the wiki. I think he's
> using an A31 based STB of some sort.
i use the NFS as root not the MMC, and the usb storage should work but no
lucky for me. i test these on A20 STB(mele A100 Dual, only 40$!!)
successful.
>
> > What's with 64-bit ARM?
>
> TBH I thought the GRuB On ARM stuff was mainly targeting 64-bit (at
> least within Linaro). Do you have native grub on 32-bit ARM already
> then?
>
> As far as 64-bit hardware goes you will have a struggle finding any at
> all right now, nevermind for under $100.
>
> We should at some point be able to support the freely (as in beer)
> available Foundation model, but we don't right now.
>
> > Alternatively, I'll probably go for Google HP chromebook 11.
>
> I don;t know about this one, but previous chromebooks have proved a pain
> to get Xen onto, too hard to debug anything on them...
>
> > Or may I have access to some server where I'd be able to run VMs with my
> > kernel (GRUB) and HDD?
>
> I'm afraid we don't here at least.
>
> Ian.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-07 2:48 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
@ 2013-11-07 10:15 ` Ian Campbell
2013-11-08 1:42 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ian Campbell @ 2013-11-07 10:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bamvor Jian Zhang
Cc: phcoder, xen-devel@lists.xen.org, The development of GRUB 2
On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 19:48 -0700, Bamvor Jian Zhang wrote:
> >>>Ian Campbell <Ian.Campbell@citrix.com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 14:00 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> > wrote:
> > > Hello, all. I've ported grub2 to x86_64-xen and i386-xen (PAE only). How
> > > big is the difference between ARM and i386 when seen as pv guest?
> >
> > Very. Xen on ARM uses hardware functionality for second stage paging, so
> > there is far less porting to do.
> >
> > > I have an ARM here but it's a raspberry pi, so no support for xen. Are
> > there
> > > machines for under $100 on which xen runs?
> >
> > The current platforms are listed on
> > http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions. The one
> > which is sub $100 is the Allwinner sunxi based stuff. The native Linux
> > support is community driven by the linux-sunxi.org folks and is
> > progressing nicely.
> >
> > I've got a cubieboard2 (A20 based, <$100) which is a promising platform.
> How about cubietruck? 2G memory plus 1G network is better than cb2. it is
> about 90$.
Ah yes, I forgot about the truck.
I suppose from Vladimir's point of view it would be rather new and
therefore require more work on the basics to get it going to the point
of doing grub development on it.
> > I've mostly been trying to get (native) SATA going, so my Xen
> > experiments are a bit lightweight, but it does boot. Bamvor has reported
> > success with using the MMC and documented it on the wiki. I think he's
> > using an A31 based STB of some sort.
> i use the NFS as root not the MMC, and the usb storage should work but no
> lucky for me. i test these on A20 STB(mele A100 Dual, only 40$!!)
> successful.
Ah, I thought for some reason you had an A31 based thing?
Ian.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-07 10:15 ` Ian Campbell
@ 2013-11-08 1:42 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
2013-11-08 9:55 ` Ian Campbell
0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread
From: Bamvor Jian Zhang @ 2013-11-08 1:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ian.Campbell; +Cc: phcoder, xen-devel, grub-devel
> >>> Ian Campbell 2013-11-7 23:20 >>>
> On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 19:48 -0700, Bamvor Jian Zhang wrote:
> > >>>Ian Campbell wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2013-11-06 at 14:00 +0100, Vladimir 'φ-coder/phcoder' Serbinenko
> > > wrote:
> > > > Hello, all. I've ported grub2 to x86_64-xen and i386-xen (PAE only). How
> > > > big is the difference between ARM and i386 when seen as pv guest?
> > >
> > > Very. Xen on ARM uses hardware functionality for second stage paging, so
> > > there is far less porting to do.
> > >
> > > > I have an ARM here but it's a raspberry pi, so no support for xen. Are
> > > there
> > > > machines for under $100 on which xen runs?
> > >
> > > The current platforms are listed on
> > > http://wiki.xen.org/wiki/Xen_ARM_with_Virtualization_Extensions. The one
> > > which is sub $100 is the Allwinner sunxi based stuff. The native Linux
> > > support is community driven by the linux-sunxi.org folks and is
> > > progressing nicely.
> > >
> > > I've got a cubieboard2 (A20 based, <$100) which is a promising platform.
> > How about cubietruck? 2G memory plus 1G network is better than cb2. it is
> > about 90$.
>
> Ah yes, I forgot about the truck.
>
> I suppose from Vladimir's point of view it would be rather new and
> therefore require more work on the basics to get it going to the point
> of doing grub development on it.
>
> > > I've mostly been trying to get (native) SATA going, so my Xen
> > > experiments are a bit lightweight, but it does boot. Bamvor has reported
> > > success with using the MMC and documented it on the wiki. I think he's
> > > using an A31 based STB of some sort.
> > i use the NFS as root not the MMC, and the usb storage should work but no
> > lucky for me. i test these on A20 STB(mele A100 Dual, only 40$!!)
> > successful.
>
> Ah, I thought for some reason you had an A31 based thing?
yes, i had A31 STB. but the sd socket is broken, usb fel is not work.
i would try boot from internal flash in future.
there are lots of guys work on A20, it seems a better choice to do what I
want.
>
> Ian.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Xen-devel mailing list
> Xen-devel@lists.xen.org
> http://lists.xen.org/xen-devel
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: [Xen-devel] pvgrub2 for ARM
2013-11-08 1:42 ` Bamvor Jian Zhang
@ 2013-11-08 9:55 ` Ian Campbell
0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread
From: Ian Campbell @ 2013-11-08 9:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Bamvor Jian Zhang; +Cc: phcoder, xen-devel, grub-devel
> > > > I've mostly been trying to get (native) SATA going, so my Xen
> > > > experiments are a bit lightweight, but it does boot. Bamvor has reported
> > > > success with using the MMC and documented it on the wiki. I think he's
> > > > using an A31 based STB of some sort.
> > > i use the NFS as root not the MMC, and the usb storage should work but no
> > > lucky for me. i test these on A20 STB(mele A100 Dual, only 40$!!)
> > > successful.
> >
> > Ah, I thought for some reason you had an A31 based thing?
> yes, i had A31 STB. but the sd socket is broken, usb fel is not work.
> i would try boot from internal flash in future.
> there are lots of guys work on A20, it seems a better choice to do what I
> want.
Yes, the A20 does seem to be getting more traction with upstream folks
and hobbiests etc and does seem to be a better choice.
I think this is partly because it has a GPU with an active reverse
engineering effort (MALI=>LIMA) instead of the A31's PowerVR which I
think doesn't have such an effort.
Ian.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread