Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[inventsekar]

Hi...

I tried searching but no luck.
Can you please suggest how Linux kernel was modified and became Android?!
Just high level ideas are enough.


PS - when I send mail to this DL, I thought I would receive my own
mail(similar to Google groups DL), as I am already member of the DL, but I
am not getting my own mail, so I get confusion whether my mail was sent or
not. On the subscription page, I looked for any options, but no luck.
Please suggest

Best regards
Sekar
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Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:15:39PM +0530, inventsekar wrote:
> Hi...
> 
> I tried searching but no luck.
> Can you please suggest how Linux kernel was modified and became Android?!

It did not.

Android devices use the Linux kernel, with only a very tiny set of
patches on top of it, just like any other embedded Linux device.  You
can see the latest Android kernel trees on the Android Open Source
project site, just search for them.

hope this helps,

greg k-h

Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[Ruben Safir]

I doesn't matter that much when you can't root the devices...


On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 05:52:38PM +0100, Greg KH wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 10:15:39PM +0530, inventsekar wrote:
> > Hi...
> > 
> > I tried searching but no luck.
> > Can you please suggest how Linux kernel was modified and became Android?!
> 
> It did not.
> 
> Android devices use the Linux kernel, with only a very tiny set of
> patches on top of it, just like any other embedded Linux device.  You
> can see the latest Android kernel trees on the Android Open Source
> project site, just search for them.
> 
> hope this helps,
> 
> greg k-h
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Kernelnewbies mailing list
> Kernelnewbies at kernelnewbies.org
> https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies

-- 
So many immigrant groups have swept through our town
that Brooklyn, like Atlantis, reaches mythological
proportions in the mind of the world - RI Safir 1998
http://www.mrbrklyn.com 

DRM is THEFT - We are the STAKEHOLDERS - RI Safir 2002
http://www.nylxs.com - Leadership Development in Free Software
http://www2.mrbrklyn.com/resources - Unpublished Archive 
http://www.coinhangout.com - coins!
http://www.brooklyn-living.com 

Being so tracked is for FARM ANIMALS and and extermination camps, 
but incompatible with living as a free human being. -RI Safir 2013

Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[Greg KH]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 11:55:45AM -0500, Ruben Safir wrote:
> I doesn't matter that much when you can't root the devices...

What do you mean, it's trivial to root almost any shipping Android
device today given the fact that they do not run up-to-date kernel
versions :)

You aren't trying hard enough...

greg k-h

Gmail and mailing list (was Re: Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[valdis.kletnieks at vt.edu]

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:15:39 +0530, inventsekar said:

> PS - when I send mail to this DL, I thought I would receive my own
> mail(similar to Google groups DL), as I am already member of the DL, but I
> am not getting my own mail, so I get confusion whether my mail was sent or
> not. On the subscription page, I looked for any options, but no luck.
> Please suggest

The tl;dr: If you really care, you can have the list send you a "Your message was posted"
confirmation. Go here: https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
and login (you'll need the password the list has for you - if you don't have it, it's
in the monthly reminder or you can ask it to send you a copy).

The gory details:

A long known issue with GMail.  Basically, what should happen is this:

1) You send e-mail. At some point, a Message-ID header gets added, usually by
the "Mail submission server". For the one I'm replying to, the server was one
of Gmail's so it tacked on:

Message-id: <CAJd9=037m-jHxR-Yz4DkQvukahPE3cK1LV_HcWJRk31+=Vc-pw@mail.gmail.com>

The important thing here is that it's supposed to be (a) netwise unique and (b)
remains the same across the lifetime of the message.

2) So say your mail was to the list, and a cc: to several people directly (the
usual state of affairs for Linux kernel development - as "reply all" is the
preferred way of doing things.  If I was listed directly, then I'll get two
copies - once for the direct copy and once from the list. (And yes, a mailing
list is supposed to preserve the value in most cases - those interested in the
gory details are referred to RFC 5322, section 3.6.4)

3) And that same Message-ID should be on both copies that I receive, which
means I can do duplicate suppression by simply saying "Have I seen this
Message-ID before?"

Works great, except....

When GMail sends your *outbound* mail, it remembers that Message-ID - which means
that when your own copy comes back from the posting to the list, GMail says "Hey,
I've seen this one before" and duplicate suppresses it. So one outbound copy
goes by and you don't see it, and then the other one gets munched, so you don't
see that one either. Whoops.

And yes, they know about it - me and some other email experts gave Google grief
about it when it was still in alpha/beta.  But they didn't listen, for reasons only they
understand(*)

To make life even *more* complicated, even though my copy of posts to the list gets
auto-deduped by GMail as it comes back, I still get a copy - because some AI in there
has figured out "Oh, he's a list subscriber, so when he posts, we'll remember the message-ID,
but also generate a copy right back into his inbox so he gets his list copy anyhow even
though we already know we're going to auto-dedup it".   Of course, this isn't a
settable, nor is it very obvious what causes GMail's AI to realize this - so I have
some lists that I get back a GMail-looped courtesy copy and some I don't.

Gaah. ;)

(*) Probably related to the way they monetize things.  As Upton SInclair wrote
a century ago: "It is impossible to get a man to understand something when his
paycheck depends on him not understanding it".


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Gmail and mailing list (was Re: Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[inventsekar]

Sure, thanks Valdis.. I will configure that delivery confirmation.

>>>>As Upton SInclair wrote
a century ago: "It is impossible to get a man to understand something when
his
paycheck depends on him not understanding it".

Perfect, Very good line..

Regarding the first question, thanks Greg, Ruben.

And I was searching further and got some learnings here... Sharing link
here, so others can learn as well.

https://android.jlelse.eu/android-internals-for-
developers-part-i-982a4409f4b5


Best regards
Sekar

On Jan 17, 2018 5:24 AM, <valdis.kletnieks@vt.edu> wrote:

On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:15:39 +0530, inventsekar said:

> PS - when I send mail to this DL, I thought I would receive my own
> mail(similar to Google groups DL), as I am already member of the DL, but I
> am not getting my own mail, so I get confusion whether my mail was sent or
> not. On the subscription page, I looked for any options, but no luck.
> Please suggest

The tl;dr: If you really care, you can have the list send you a "Your
message was posted"
confirmation. Go here: https://lists.kernelnewbies.or
g/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
and login (you'll need the password the list has for you - if you don't
have it, it's
in the monthly reminder or you can ask it to send you a copy).

The gory details:

A long known issue with GMail.  Basically, what should happen is this:

1) You send e-mail. At some point, a Message-ID header gets added, usually
by
the "Mail submission server". For the one I'm replying to, the server was
one
of Gmail's so it tacked on:

Message-id: <CAJd9=037m-jHxR-Yz4DkQvukahPE3cK1LV_HcWJRk31+=Vc-pw@mail.
gmail.com>

The important thing here is that it's supposed to be (a) netwise unique and
(b)
remains the same across the lifetime of the message.

2) So say your mail was to the list, and a cc: to several people directly
(the
usual state of affairs for Linux kernel development - as "reply all" is the
preferred way of doing things.  If I was listed directly, then I'll get two
copies - once for the direct copy and once from the list. (And yes, a
mailing
list is supposed to preserve the value in most cases - those interested in
the
gory details are referred to RFC 5322, section 3.6.4)

3) And that same Message-ID should be on both copies that I receive, which
means I can do duplicate suppression by simply saying "Have I seen this
Message-ID before?"

Works great, except....

When GMail sends your *outbound* mail, it remembers that Message-ID - which
means
that when your own copy comes back from the posting to the list, GMail says
"Hey,
I've seen this one before" and duplicate suppresses it. So one outbound copy
goes by and you don't see it, and then the other one gets munched, so you
don't
see that one either. Whoops.

And yes, they know about it - me and some other email experts gave Google
grief
about it when it was still in alpha/beta.  But they didn't listen, for
reasons only they
understand(*)

To make life even *more* complicated, even though my copy of posts to the
list gets
auto-deduped by GMail as it comes back, I still get a copy - because some
AI in there
has figured out "Oh, he's a list subscriber, so when he posts, we'll
remember the message-ID,
but also generate a copy right back into his inbox so he gets his list copy
anyhow even
though we already know we're going to auto-dedup it".   Of course, this
isn't a
settable, nor is it very obvious what causes GMail's AI to realize this -
so I have
some lists that I get back a GMail-looped courtesy copy and some I don't.

Gaah. ;)

(*) Probably related to the way they monetize things.  As Upton SInclair
wrote
a century ago: "It is impossible to get a man to understand something when
his
paycheck depends on him not understanding it".
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Gmail and mailing list (was Re: Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[Yubin Ruan]

On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 04:24:41PM -0500, valdis.kletnieks at vt.edu wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:15:39 +0530, inventsekar said:
> 
> > PS - when I send mail to this DL, I thought I would receive my own
> > mail(similar to Google groups DL), as I am already member of the DL, but I
> > am not getting my own mail, so I get confusion whether my mail was sent or
> > not. On the subscription page, I looked for any options, but no luck.
> > Please suggest

I am using gmail but never notice the behaviors you stated. Thanks for your
information. See below:
 
> The tl;dr: If you really care, you can have the list send you a "Your message was posted"
> confirmation. Go here: https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> and login (you'll need the password the list has for you - if you don't have it, it's
> in the monthly reminder or you can ask it to send you a copy).
> 
> The gory details:
> 
> A long known issue with GMail.  Basically, what should happen is this:
> 
> 1) You send e-mail. At some point, a Message-ID header gets added, usually by
> the "Mail submission server". For the one I'm replying to, the server was one
> of Gmail's so it tacked on:
> 
> Message-id: <CAJd9=037m-jHxR-Yz4DkQvukahPE3cK1LV_HcWJRk31+=Vc-pw@mail.gmail.com>
> 
> The important thing here is that it's supposed to be (a) netwise unique and (b)
> remains the same across the lifetime of the message.
> 
> 2) So say your mail was to the list, and a cc: to several people directly (the
> usual state of affairs for Linux kernel development - as "reply all" is the
> preferred way of doing things.  If I was listed directly, then I'll get two
> copies - once for the direct copy and once from the list. (And yes, a mailing
> list is supposed to preserve the value in most cases - those interested in the
> gory details are referred to RFC 5322, section 3.6.4)
> 
> 3) And that same Message-ID should be on both copies that I receive, which
> means I can do duplicate suppression by simply saying "Have I seen this
> Message-ID before?"
> 
> Works great, except....
> 
> When GMail sends your *outbound* mail, it remembers that Message-ID - which means
> that when your own copy comes back from the posting to the list, GMail says "Hey,
> I've seen this one before" and duplicate suppresses it. So one outbound copy
> goes by and you don't see it, and then the other one gets munched, so you don't
> see that one either. Whoops.

By "gets munched" you mean "get deleted", right? But why would the other one
gets deleted if Gmail suppress the duplicate message? Is this your
configuration fault?
 
> And yes, they know about it - me and some other email experts gave Google grief
> about it when it was still in alpha/beta.  But they didn't listen, for reasons only they
> understand(*)
> 
> To make life even *more* complicated, even though my copy of posts to the list gets
> auto-deduped by GMail as it comes back, I still get a copy - because some AI in there
> has figured out "Oh, he's a list subscriber, so when he posts, we'll remember the message-ID,
> but also generate a copy right back into his inbox so he gets his list copy anyhow even
> though we already know we're going to auto-dedup it".   Of course, this isn't a
> settable, nor is it very obvious what causes GMail's AI to realize this - so I have
> some lists that I get back a GMail-looped courtesy copy and some I don't.

Hmm... I didn't noticed which list works and which not yet (I was not aware of
the situation where duplicate message with same Message-ID get suppressed by
Gmail previously). Is kernel newbie affected, or any other lists?

        Yubin

> Gaah. ;)
> 
> (*) Probably related to the way they monetize things.  As Upton SInclair wrote
> a century ago: "It is impossible to get a man to understand something when his
> paycheck depends on him not understanding it".
> 
> 

Gmail and mailing list (was Re: Regarding Linux kernel vs Android

[Yubin Ruan]

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:11:45PM +0800, Yubin Ruan wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 04:24:41PM -0500, valdis.kletnieks at vt.edu wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 22:15:39 +0530, inventsekar said:
> > 
> > > PS - when I send mail to this DL, I thought I would receive my own
> > > mail(similar to Google groups DL), as I am already member of the DL, but I
> > > am not getting my own mail, so I get confusion whether my mail was sent or
> > > not. On the subscription page, I looked for any options, but no luck.
> > > Please suggest
> 
> I am using gmail but never notice the behaviors you stated. Thanks for your
> information. See below:
>  
> > The tl;dr: If you really care, you can have the list send you a "Your message was posted"
> > confirmation. Go here: https://lists.kernelnewbies.org/mailman/listinfo/kernelnewbies
> > and login (you'll need the password the list has for you - if you don't have it, it's
> > in the monthly reminder or you can ask it to send you a copy).
> > 
> > The gory details:
> > 
> > A long known issue with GMail.  Basically, what should happen is this:
> > 
> > 1) You send e-mail. At some point, a Message-ID header gets added, usually by
> > the "Mail submission server". For the one I'm replying to, the server was one
> > of Gmail's so it tacked on:
> > 
> > Message-id: <CAJd9=037m-jHxR-Yz4DkQvukahPE3cK1LV_HcWJRk31+=Vc-pw@mail.gmail.com>
> > 
> > The important thing here is that it's supposed to be (a) netwise unique and (b)
> > remains the same across the lifetime of the message.
> > 
> > 2) So say your mail was to the list, and a cc: to several people directly (the
> > usual state of affairs for Linux kernel development - as "reply all" is the
> > preferred way of doing things.  If I was listed directly, then I'll get two
> > copies - once for the direct copy and once from the list. (And yes, a mailing
> > list is supposed to preserve the value in most cases - those interested in the
> > gory details are referred to RFC 5322, section 3.6.4)
> > 
> > 3) And that same Message-ID should be on both copies that I receive, which
> > means I can do duplicate suppression by simply saying "Have I seen this
> > Message-ID before?"
> > 
> > Works great, except....
> > 
> > When GMail sends your *outbound* mail, it remembers that Message-ID - which means
> > that when your own copy comes back from the posting to the list, GMail says "Hey,
> > I've seen this one before" and duplicate suppresses it. So one outbound copy
> > goes by and you don't see it, and then the other one gets munched, so you don't
> > see that one either. Whoops.
> 
> By "gets munched" you mean "get deleted", right? But why would the other one
> gets deleted if Gmail suppress the duplicate message? Is this your
> configuration fault?
>  
> > And yes, they know about it - me and some other email experts gave Google grief
> > about it when it was still in alpha/beta.  But they didn't listen, for reasons only they
> > understand(*)
> > 
> > To make life even *more* complicated, even though my copy of posts to the list gets
> > auto-deduped by GMail as it comes back, I still get a copy - because some AI in there
> > has figured out "Oh, he's a list subscriber, so when he posts, we'll remember the message-ID,
> > but also generate a copy right back into his inbox so he gets his list copy anyhow even
> > though we already know we're going to auto-dedup it".   Of course, this isn't a
> > settable, nor is it very obvious what causes GMail's AI to realize this - so I have
> > some lists that I get back a GMail-looped courtesy copy and some I don't.
> 
> Hmm... I didn't noticed which list works and which not yet (I was not aware of
> the situation where duplicate message with same Message-ID get suppressed by
> Gmail previously). Is kernel newbie affected, or any other lists?

Oh now I observe the behavior on std-discussion (hosted on isocpp.org). Gmail
seems to automatically delete mails from the mailing list server if I Cc/Bcc
myself a copy (if the server has ever sent me a copy, which I am not sure).
But I still get a copy, and things still work smoothly.

        Yubin