* Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
@ 2015-01-01 12:59 Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-05 12:35 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Razya Ladelsky @ 2015-01-01 12:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: mst
Cc: Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Yossi Kuperman1, Joel Nider,
abel.gordon, kvm, Eyal Moscovici, Razya Ladelsky
Hi Michael,
Just a follow up on the polling patch numbers,..
Please let me know if you find these numbers satisfying enough to continue
with submitting this patch.
Otherwise - we'll have this patch submitted as part of the larger Elvis
patch set rather than independently.
Thank you,
Razya
----- Forwarded by Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM on 01/01/2015 09:37 AM -----
From: Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
To: mst@redhat.com
Cc:
Date: 25/11/2014 02:43 PM
Subject: Re: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
Sent by: kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org
Hi Michael,
> Hi Razya,
> On the netperf benchmark, it looks like polling=10 gives a modest but
> measureable gain. So from that perspective it might be worth it if it's
> not too much code, though we'll need to spend more time checking the
> macro effect - we barely moved the needle on the macro benchmark and
> that is suspicious.
I ran memcached with various values for the key & value arguments, and
managed to see a bigger impact of polling than when I used the default
values,
Here are the numbers:
key=250 TPS net vhost vm TPS/cpu TPS/CPU
value=2048 rate util util change
polling=0 101540 103.0 46 100 695.47
polling=5 136747 123.0 83 100 747.25 0.074440609
polling=7 140722 125.7 84 100 764.79 0.099663658
polling=10 141719 126.3 87 100 757.85 0.089688003
polling=15 142430 127.1 90 100 749.63 0.077863015
polling=25 146347 128.7 95 100 750.49 0.079107993
polling=50 150882 131.1 100 100 754.41 0.084733701
Macro benchmarks are less I/O intensive than the micro benchmark, which is
why
we can expect less impact for polling as compared to netperf.
However, as shown above, we managed to get 10% TPS/CPU improvement with
the
polling patch.
> Is there a chance you are actually trading latency for throughput?
> do you observe any effect on latency?
No.
> How about trying some other benchmark, e.g. NFS?
>
Tried, but didn't have enough I/O produced (vhost was at most at 15% util)
>
> Also, I am wondering:
>
> since vhost thread is polling in kernel anyway, shouldn't
> we try and poll the host NIC?
> that would likely reduce at least the latency significantly,
> won't it?
>
Yes, it could be a great addition at some point, but needs a thorough
investigation. In any case, not a part of this patch...
Thanks,
Razya
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-01 12:59 Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch Razya Ladelsky
@ 2015-01-05 12:35 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-11 12:44 ` Razya Ladelsky
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Michael S. Tsirkin @ 2015-01-05 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Razya Ladelsky
Cc: Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Yossi Kuperman1, Joel Nider,
abel.gordon, kvm, Eyal Moscovici
Hi Razya,
Thanks for the update.
So that's reasonable I think, and I think it makes sense
to keep working on this in isolation - it's more
manageable at this size.
The big questions in my mind:
- What happens if system is lightly loaded?
E.g. a ping/pong benchmark. How much extra CPU are
we wasting?
- We see the best performance on your system is with 10usec worth of polling.
It's OK to be able to tune it for best performance, but
most people don't have the time or the inclination.
So what would be the best value for other CPUs?
- Should this be tunable from usespace per vhost instance?
Why is it only tunable globally?
- How bad is it if you don't pin vhost and vcpu threads?
Is the scheduler smart enough to pull them apart?
- What happens in overcommit scenarios? Does polling make things
much worse?
Clearly polling will work worse if e.g. vhost and vcpu
share the host cpu. How can we avoid conflicts?
For two last questions, better cooperation with host scheduler will
likely help here.
See e.g. http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1771791/focus=1772505
I'm currently looking at pushing something similar upstream,
if it goes in vhost polling can do something similar.
Any data points to shed light on these questions?
On Thu, Jan 01, 2015 at 02:59:21PM +0200, Razya Ladelsky wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> Just a follow up on the polling patch numbers,..
> Please let me know if you find these numbers satisfying enough to continue
> with submitting this patch.
> Otherwise - we'll have this patch submitted as part of the larger Elvis
> patch set rather than independently.
> Thank you,
> Razya
>
> ----- Forwarded by Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM on 01/01/2015 09:37 AM -----
>
> From: Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> To: mst@redhat.com
> Cc:
> Date: 25/11/2014 02:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
> Sent by: kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org
>
>
>
> Hi Michael,
>
> > Hi Razya,
> > On the netperf benchmark, it looks like polling=10 gives a modest but
> > measureable gain. So from that perspective it might be worth it if it's
> > not too much code, though we'll need to spend more time checking the
> > macro effect - we barely moved the needle on the macro benchmark and
> > that is suspicious.
>
> I ran memcached with various values for the key & value arguments, and
> managed to see a bigger impact of polling than when I used the default
> values,
> Here are the numbers:
>
> key=250 TPS net vhost vm TPS/cpu TPS/CPU
> value=2048 rate util util change
>
> polling=0 101540 103.0 46 100 695.47
> polling=5 136747 123.0 83 100 747.25 0.074440609
> polling=7 140722 125.7 84 100 764.79 0.099663658
> polling=10 141719 126.3 87 100 757.85 0.089688003
> polling=15 142430 127.1 90 100 749.63 0.077863015
> polling=25 146347 128.7 95 100 750.49 0.079107993
> polling=50 150882 131.1 100 100 754.41 0.084733701
>
> Macro benchmarks are less I/O intensive than the micro benchmark, which is
> why
> we can expect less impact for polling as compared to netperf.
> However, as shown above, we managed to get 10% TPS/CPU improvement with
> the
> polling patch.
>
> > Is there a chance you are actually trading latency for throughput?
> > do you observe any effect on latency?
>
> No.
>
> > How about trying some other benchmark, e.g. NFS?
> >
>
> Tried, but didn't have enough I/O produced (vhost was at most at 15% util)
OK but was there a regression in this case?
> >
> > Also, I am wondering:
> >
> > since vhost thread is polling in kernel anyway, shouldn't
> > we try and poll the host NIC?
> > that would likely reduce at least the latency significantly,
> > won't it?
> >
>
> Yes, it could be a great addition at some point, but needs a thorough
> investigation. In any case, not a part of this patch...
>
> Thanks,
> Razya
>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-05 12:35 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
@ 2015-01-11 12:44 ` Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-12 10:36 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Razya Ladelsky @ 2015-01-11 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael S.Tsirkin
Cc: Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Yossi Kuperman1, Joel Nider,
abel.gordon, kvm, Eyal Moscovici, Razya Ladelsky
> Hi Razya,
> Thanks for the update.
> So that's reasonable I think, and I think it makes sense
> to keep working on this in isolation - it's more
> manageable at this size.
>
> The big questions in my mind:
> - What happens if system is lightly loaded?
> E.g. a ping/pong benchmark. How much extra CPU are
> we wasting?
> - We see the best performance on your system is with 10usec worth of
polling.
> It's OK to be able to tune it for best performance, but
> most people don't have the time or the inclination.
> So what would be the best value for other CPUs?
The extra cpu waste vs throughput gains depends on the polling timeout
value(poll_stop_idle).
The best value to chose is dependant on the workload and the system
hardware and configuration.
There is nothing that we can say about this value in advance. The system's
manager/administrator should use this optimization with the awareness that
polling
consumes extra cpu cycles, as documented.
> - Should this be tunable from usespace per vhost instance?
> Why is it only tunable globally?
It should be tunable per vhost thread.
We can do it in a subsequent patch.
> - How bad is it if you don't pin vhost and vcpu threads?
> Is the scheduler smart enough to pull them apart?
> - What happens in overcommit scenarios? Does polling make things
> much worse?
> Clearly polling will work worse if e.g. vhost and vcpu
> share the host cpu. How can we avoid conflicts?
>
> For two last questions, better cooperation with host scheduler will
> likely help here.
> See e.g.
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1771791/focus=1772505
> I'm currently looking at pushing something similar upstream,
> if it goes in vhost polling can do something similar.
>
> Any data points to shed light on these questions?
I ran a simple apache benchmark, with an over commit scenario, where both
the vcpu and vhost share the same core.
In some cases (c>4 in my testcases) polling surprisingly produced a better
throughput.
Therefore, it is hard to predict how the polling will impact performance
in advance.
It is up to whoever is using this optimization to use it wisely.
Thanks,
Razya
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-11 12:44 ` Razya Ladelsky
@ 2015-01-12 10:36 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-14 15:01 ` Razya Ladelsky
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Michael S. Tsirkin @ 2015-01-12 10:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Razya Ladelsky
Cc: Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Yossi Kuperman1, Joel Nider,
abel.gordon, kvm, Eyal Moscovici
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 02:44:17PM +0200, Razya Ladelsky wrote:
> > Hi Razya,
> > Thanks for the update.
> > So that's reasonable I think, and I think it makes sense
> > to keep working on this in isolation - it's more
> > manageable at this size.
> >
> > The big questions in my mind:
> > - What happens if system is lightly loaded?
> > E.g. a ping/pong benchmark. How much extra CPU are
> > we wasting?
> > - We see the best performance on your system is with 10usec worth of
> polling.
> > It's OK to be able to tune it for best performance, but
> > most people don't have the time or the inclination.
> > So what would be the best value for other CPUs?
>
> The extra cpu waste vs throughput gains depends on the polling timeout
> value(poll_stop_idle).
> The best value to chose is dependant on the workload and the system
> hardware and configuration.
> There is nothing that we can say about this value in advance. The system's
> manager/administrator should use this optimization with the awareness that
> polling
> consumes extra cpu cycles, as documented.
>
> > - Should this be tunable from usespace per vhost instance?
> > Why is it only tunable globally?
>
> It should be tunable per vhost thread.
> We can do it in a subsequent patch.
So I think whether the patchset is appropriate upstream
will depend exactly on coming up with a reasonable
interface for enabling and tuning the functionality.
I was hopeful some reasonable default value can be
derived from e.g. cost of the exit.
If that is not the case, it becomes that much harder
for users to select good default values.
There are some cases where networking stack already
exposes low-level hardware detail to userspace, e.g.
tcp polling configuration. If we can't come up with
a way to abstract hardware, maybe we can at least tie
it to these existing controls rather than introducing
new ones?
> > - How bad is it if you don't pin vhost and vcpu threads?
> > Is the scheduler smart enough to pull them apart?
> > - What happens in overcommit scenarios? Does polling make things
> > much worse?
> > Clearly polling will work worse if e.g. vhost and vcpu
> > share the host cpu. How can we avoid conflicts?
> >
> > For two last questions, better cooperation with host scheduler will
> > likely help here.
> > See e.g.
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1771791/focus=1772505
> > I'm currently looking at pushing something similar upstream,
> > if it goes in vhost polling can do something similar.
> >
> > Any data points to shed light on these questions?
>
> I ran a simple apache benchmark, with an over commit scenario, where both
> the vcpu and vhost share the same core.
> In some cases (c>4 in my testcases) polling surprisingly produced a better
> throughput.
Likely because latency is hurt, so you get better batching?
> Therefore, it is hard to predict how the polling will impact performance
> in advance.
If it's so hard, users will struggle to configure this properly.
Looks like an argument for us developers to do the hard work,
and expose simpler controls to users?
> It is up to whoever is using this optimization to use it wisely.
> Thanks,
> Razya
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-12 10:36 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
@ 2015-01-14 15:01 ` Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-14 15:23 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Razya Ladelsky @ 2015-01-14 15:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael S. Tsirkin
Cc: abel.gordon, Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Eyal Moscovici,
Joel Nider, kvm, Yossi Kuperman1, Razya Ladelsky
"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com> wrote on 12/01/2015 12:36:13 PM:
> From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>
> To: Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> Cc: Alex Glikson/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Eran Raichstein/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
> Yossi Kuperman1/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Joel Nider/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
> abel.gordon@gmail.com, kvm@vger.kernel.org, Eyal
Moscovici/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> Date: 12/01/2015 12:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
>
> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 02:44:17PM +0200, Razya Ladelsky wrote:
> > > Hi Razya,
> > > Thanks for the update.
> > > So that's reasonable I think, and I think it makes sense
> > > to keep working on this in isolation - it's more
> > > manageable at this size.
> > >
> > > The big questions in my mind:
> > > - What happens if system is lightly loaded?
> > > E.g. a ping/pong benchmark. How much extra CPU are
> > > we wasting?
> > > - We see the best performance on your system is with 10usec worth of
> > polling.
> > > It's OK to be able to tune it for best performance, but
> > > most people don't have the time or the inclination.
> > > So what would be the best value for other CPUs?
> >
> > The extra cpu waste vs throughput gains depends on the polling timeout
> > value(poll_stop_idle).
> > The best value to chose is dependant on the workload and the system
> > hardware and configuration.
> > There is nothing that we can say about this value in advance. The
system's
> > manager/administrator should use this optimization with the awareness
that
> > polling
> > consumes extra cpu cycles, as documented.
> >
> > > - Should this be tunable from usespace per vhost instance?
> > > Why is it only tunable globally?
> >
> > It should be tunable per vhost thread.
> > We can do it in a subsequent patch.
>
> So I think whether the patchset is appropriate upstream
> will depend exactly on coming up with a reasonable
> interface for enabling and tuning the functionality.
>
How about adding a new ioctl for each vhost device that
sets the poll_stop_idle (the timeout)?
This should be aligned with the QEMU "way" of doing things.
> I was hopeful some reasonable default value can be
> derived from e.g. cost of the exit.
> If that is not the case, it becomes that much harder
> for users to select good default values.
>
Our suggestion would be to use the maximum (a large enough) value,
so that vhost is polling 100% of the time.
The polling optimization mainly addresses users who want to maximize their
performance, even on the expense of wasting cpu cycles. The maximum value
will produce the biggest impact on performance.
However, using the maximum default value will be valuable even for users
who care more about the normalized throughput/cpu criteria. Such users,
interested in a finer tuning of the polling timeout need to look for an
optimal timeout value for their system. The maximum value serves as the
upper limit of the range that needs to be searched for such optimal
timeout value.
> There are some cases where networking stack already
> exposes low-level hardware detail to userspace, e.g.
> tcp polling configuration. If we can't come up with
> a way to abstract hardware, maybe we can at least tie
> it to these existing controls rather than introducing
> new ones?
>
We've spent time thinking about the possible interfaces that
could be appropriate for such an optimization(including tcp polling).
We think that using the ioctl as interface to "configure" the virtual
device/vhost,
in the same manner that e.g. SET_NET_BACKEND is configured, makes a lot of
sense, and
is consistent with the existing mechanism.
Thanks,
Razya
>
> > > - How bad is it if you don't pin vhost and vcpu threads?
> > > Is the scheduler smart enough to pull them apart?
> > > - What happens in overcommit scenarios? Does polling make things
> > > much worse?
> > > Clearly polling will work worse if e.g. vhost and vcpu
> > > share the host cpu. How can we avoid conflicts?
> > >
> > > For two last questions, better cooperation with host scheduler
will
> > > likely help here.
> > > See e.g.
> > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1771791/focus=1772505
> > > I'm currently looking at pushing something similar upstream,
> > > if it goes in vhost polling can do something similar.
> > >
> > > Any data points to shed light on these questions?
> >
> > I ran a simple apache benchmark, with an over commit scenario, where
both
> > the vcpu and vhost share the same core.
> > In some cases (c>4 in my testcases) polling surprisingly produced a
better
> > throughput.
>
> Likely because latency is hurt, so you get better batching?
>
> > Therefore, it is hard to predict how the polling will impact
performance
> > in advance.
>
> If it's so hard, users will struggle to configure this properly.
> Looks like an argument for us developers to do the hard work,
> and expose simpler controls to users?
>
> > It is up to whoever is using this optimization to use it wisely.
> > Thanks,
> > Razya
> >
>
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-14 15:01 ` Razya Ladelsky
@ 2015-01-14 15:23 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-18 7:40 ` Razya Ladelsky
0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Michael S. Tsirkin @ 2015-01-14 15:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Razya Ladelsky
Cc: abel.gordon, Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Eyal Moscovici,
Joel Nider, kvm, Yossi Kuperman1
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 05:01:05PM +0200, Razya Ladelsky wrote:
> "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com> wrote on 12/01/2015 12:36:13 PM:
>
> > From: "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@redhat.com>
> > To: Razya Ladelsky/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> > Cc: Alex Glikson/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Eran Raichstein/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
> > Yossi Kuperman1/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL, Joel Nider/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL,
> > abel.gordon@gmail.com, kvm@vger.kernel.org, Eyal
> Moscovici/Haifa/IBM@IBMIL
> > Date: 12/01/2015 12:36 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 02:44:17PM +0200, Razya Ladelsky wrote:
> > > > Hi Razya,
> > > > Thanks for the update.
> > > > So that's reasonable I think, and I think it makes sense
> > > > to keep working on this in isolation - it's more
> > > > manageable at this size.
> > > >
> > > > The big questions in my mind:
> > > > - What happens if system is lightly loaded?
> > > > E.g. a ping/pong benchmark. How much extra CPU are
> > > > we wasting?
> > > > - We see the best performance on your system is with 10usec worth of
>
> > > polling.
> > > > It's OK to be able to tune it for best performance, but
> > > > most people don't have the time or the inclination.
> > > > So what would be the best value for other CPUs?
> > >
> > > The extra cpu waste vs throughput gains depends on the polling timeout
>
> > > value(poll_stop_idle).
> > > The best value to chose is dependant on the workload and the system
> > > hardware and configuration.
> > > There is nothing that we can say about this value in advance. The
> system's
> > > manager/administrator should use this optimization with the awareness
> that
> > > polling
> > > consumes extra cpu cycles, as documented.
> > >
> > > > - Should this be tunable from usespace per vhost instance?
> > > > Why is it only tunable globally?
> > >
> > > It should be tunable per vhost thread.
> > > We can do it in a subsequent patch.
> >
> > So I think whether the patchset is appropriate upstream
> > will depend exactly on coming up with a reasonable
> > interface for enabling and tuning the functionality.
> >
>
> How about adding a new ioctl for each vhost device that
> sets the poll_stop_idle (the timeout)?
> This should be aligned with the QEMU "way" of doing things.
>
> > I was hopeful some reasonable default value can be
> > derived from e.g. cost of the exit.
> > If that is not the case, it becomes that much harder
> > for users to select good default values.
> >
>
> Our suggestion would be to use the maximum (a large enough) value,
> so that vhost is polling 100% of the time.
>
> The polling optimization mainly addresses users who want to maximize their
> performance, even on the expense of wasting cpu cycles. The maximum value
> will produce the biggest impact on performance.
*Everyone* is interested in getting maximum performance from
their systems.
> However, using the maximum default value will be valuable even for users
> who care more about the normalized throughput/cpu criteria. Such users,
> interested in a finer tuning of the polling timeout need to look for an
> optimal timeout value for their system. The maximum value serves as the
> upper limit of the range that needs to be searched for such optimal
> timeout value.
Number of users who are going to do this kind of tuning
can be counted on one hand.
The "poll all the time" also only works well
only if you have dedicated CPUs for VMs, and no HT.
I'm concerned you didn't really try to do something more widely useful,
and easier to use, being too focused on getting your high netperf
number.
>
> > There are some cases where networking stack already
> > exposes low-level hardware detail to userspace, e.g.
> > tcp polling configuration. If we can't come up with
> > a way to abstract hardware, maybe we can at least tie
> > it to these existing controls rather than introducing
> > new ones?
> >
>
> We've spent time thinking about the possible interfaces that
> could be appropriate for such an optimization(including tcp polling).
> We think that using the ioctl as interface to "configure" the virtual
> device/vhost,
> in the same manner that e.g. SET_NET_BACKEND is configured, makes a lot of
> sense, and
> is consistent with the existing mechanism.
>
> Thanks,
> Razya
guest is giving up it's share of CPU for benefit of vhost, right?
So maybe exposing this to guest is appropriate, and then
add e.g. an ethtool interface for guest admin to set this.
This means we'll want virtio and qemu patches for this.
But really, you want to find a way to enable it by default.
> > > > - How bad is it if you don't pin vhost and vcpu threads?
> > > > Is the scheduler smart enough to pull them apart?
> > > > - What happens in overcommit scenarios? Does polling make things
> > > > much worse?
> > > > Clearly polling will work worse if e.g. vhost and vcpu
> > > > share the host cpu. How can we avoid conflicts?
> > > >
> > > > For two last questions, better cooperation with host scheduler
> will
> > > > likely help here.
> > > > See e.g.
> > > http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/1771791/focus=1772505
> > > > I'm currently looking at pushing something similar upstream,
> > > > if it goes in vhost polling can do something similar.
> > > >
> > > > Any data points to shed light on these questions?
> > >
> > > I ran a simple apache benchmark, with an over commit scenario, where
> both
> > > the vcpu and vhost share the same core.
> > > In some cases (c>4 in my testcases) polling surprisingly produced a
> better
> > > throughput.
> >
> > Likely because latency is hurt, so you get better batching?
> >
> > > Therefore, it is hard to predict how the polling will impact
> performance
> > > in advance.
> >
> > If it's so hard, users will struggle to configure this properly.
> > Looks like an argument for us developers to do the hard work,
> > and expose simpler controls to users?
> >
> > > It is up to whoever is using this optimization to use it wisely.
> > > Thanks,
> > > Razya
> > >
> >
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch
2015-01-14 15:23 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
@ 2015-01-18 7:40 ` Razya Ladelsky
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Razya Ladelsky @ 2015-01-18 7:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Michael S. Tsirkin
Cc: abel.gordon, Alex Glikson, Eran Raichstein, Eyal Moscovici,
Joel Nider, kvm, Yossi Kuperman1
> >
> > Our suggestion would be to use the maximum (a large enough) value,
> > so that vhost is polling 100% of the time.
> >
> > The polling optimization mainly addresses users who want to maximize
their
> > performance, even on the expense of wasting cpu cycles. The maximum
value
> > will produce the biggest impact on performance.
>
> *Everyone* is interested in getting maximum performance from
> their systems.
>
Maybe so, but not everyone is willing to pay the price.
That is also the reason why this optimization should not be enabled by
default.
> > However, using the maximum default value will be valuable even for
users
> > who care more about the normalized throughput/cpu criteria. Such
users,
> > interested in a finer tuning of the polling timeout need to look for
an
> > optimal timeout value for their system. The maximum value serves as
the
> > upper limit of the range that needs to be searched for such optimal
> > timeout value.
>
> Number of users who are going to do this kind of tuning
> can be counted on one hand.
>
If the optimization is not enabled by default, the default value is almost
irrelevant, because when users turn on the feature they should understand
that there's an associated cost and they have to tune their system if they
want to get the maximum benefit (depending how they define their maximum
benefit).
The maximum value is a good starting point that will work in most cases
and can be used to start the tuning.
> >
> > > There are some cases where networking stack already
> > > exposes low-level hardware detail to userspace, e.g.
> > > tcp polling configuration. If we can't come up with
> > > a way to abstract hardware, maybe we can at least tie
> > > it to these existing controls rather than introducing
> > > new ones?
> > >
> >
> > We've spent time thinking about the possible interfaces that
> > could be appropriate for such an optimization(including tcp polling).
> > We think that using the ioctl as interface to "configure" the virtual
> > device/vhost,
> > in the same manner that e.g. SET_NET_BACKEND is configured, makes a
lot of
> > sense, and
> > is consistent with the existing mechanism.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Razya
>
> guest is giving up it's share of CPU for benefit of vhost, right?
> So maybe exposing this to guest is appropriate, and then
> add e.g. an ethtool interface for guest admin to set this.
>
The decision making of whether to turn polling on (and with what rate)
should be made by the system administrator, who has a broad view of the
system and workload, and not by the guest administrator.
Polling should be a tunable parameter from the host side, the guest should
not be aware of it.
The guest is not necessarily giving up its time. It may be that there's
just an extra dedicated core or free cpu cycles on a different cpu.
We provide a mechanism and an interface that can be tuned by some other
program to implement its policy.
This patch is all about the mechanism and not the policy of how to use it.
Thank you,
Razya
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Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2015-01-01 12:59 Fw: Benchmarking for vhost polling patch Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-05 12:35 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-11 12:44 ` Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-12 10:36 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-14 15:01 ` Razya Ladelsky
2015-01-14 15:23 ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2015-01-18 7:40 ` Razya Ladelsky
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