can we hope a stable version in the near future?

can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Farkas Levente]

hi,
i've to repeat myself old mail again:
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095

i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known bug
and may be start a new branch for development asap.
how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a stable
release?
i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
point of view.

just my 2c:-(

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Brian Jackson]

I think that's one of the things that distro's are good for.



On Nov 9, 2008, at 3:13 PM, Farkas Levente wrote:

> hi,
> i've to repeat myself old mail again:
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095
>
> i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
> people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
> extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
> problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
> latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
> 100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
> so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known  
> bug
> and may be start a new branch for development asap.
> how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a  
> stable
> release?
> i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
> stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
> point of view.
>
> just my 2c:-(
>
> -- 
>  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Avi Kivity]

Farkas Levente wrote:
> hi,
> i've to repeat myself old mail again:
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095
>
> i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
> people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
> extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
> problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
> latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
> 100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
> so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known bug
> and may be start a new branch for development asap.
> how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a stable
> release?
> i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
> stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
> point of view.
>   

There is the maint/ series on git.kernel.org.  It doesn't have formal 
releases though.

-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Farkas Levente]

Avi Kivity wrote:
> Farkas Levente wrote:
>> hi,
>> i've to repeat myself old mail again:
>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095
>>
>> i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
>> people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
>> extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
>> problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
>> latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
>> 100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
>> so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known bug
>> and may be start a new branch for development asap.
>> how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a stable
>> release?
>> i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
>> stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
>> point of view.
>>   
> 
> There is the maint/ series on git.kernel.org.  It doesn't have formal
> releases though.

do you plan any formal release? and it'd be nice to see the relationship
between the current devel tree and the stable tree to eg. last stable
0.5 current devel 0.78.
on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use kvm
in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
anything else as a virtualization platform.
in short do you have any public roadmap?

the term stable means for me:
- can use on different host (at least the latest rhel (if you're at rh),
fedora, ubuntu)
- can use different guests (rhel, fedora, ubuntu, mandrake, windows
2000, xp, vista)
- can use mixed i386, x86_64 host guest,
- can use smp ie. more vcpu if the host has more core.
where "use" means: install, boot, run without kernel crash and none
noticeable performance drop (10-20% less relative to the host is
acceptable but 50% is not).

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Avi Kivity]

Farkas Levente wrote:
>> There is the maint/ series on git.kernel.org.  It doesn't have formal
>> releases though.
>>     
>
> do you plan any formal release? and it'd be nice to see the relationship
> between the current devel tree and the stable tree to eg. last stable
> 0.5 current devel 0.78.
>   

The key to a formal release is a formal test suite.  We've been building 
one (for a long while) but it isn't in production yet.

The plan is for it to be open so people can add their favorite guests, 
to ensure they will not regress.

> on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
> any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
> we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use kvm
> in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
> case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
> anything else as a virtualization platform.
>   

kvm is used in production on several products.  Just not the kvm-nn 
releases I make.  The production versions of kvm are backed by testing, 
which makes all the difference.  Slapping a 'stable' label over a 
release doesn't make it so.


-- 
error compiling committee.c: too many arguments to function

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Farkas Levente]

Avi Kivity wrote:
> Farkas Levente wrote:
>>> There is the maint/ series on git.kernel.org.  It doesn't have formal
>>> releases though.
>>>     
>>
>> do you plan any formal release? and it'd be nice to see the relationship
>> between the current devel tree and the stable tree to eg. last stable
>> 0.5 current devel 0.78.
>>   
> 
> The key to a formal release is a formal test suite.  We've been building
> one (for a long while) but it isn't in production yet.
> 
> The plan is for it to be open so people can add their favorite guests,
> to ensure they will not regress.

the question is not when but what happened with those bugs which cause
test fail? the problem currently not that we don't know problems, but
there are many known bugs just the reason and the solution not known. so
 test suite can't help too much here (may be find more bugs).

>> on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
>> any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
>> we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use kvm
>> in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
>> case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
>> anything else as a virtualization platform.
>>   
> 
> kvm is used in production on several products.  Just not the kvm-nn
> releases I make.  The production versions of kvm are backed by testing,
> which makes all the difference.  Slapping a 'stable' label over a
> release doesn't make it so.

there are many open source project which has stable and devel
versions:-) actually almost all projects have a stable release along
with the devel version. but kvm has not any in the last few years,
that's why i think it's high time to stabilize 'a' version ie. frozen
feature list and fix all known bugs.

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Dor Laor]

Farkas Levente wrote:
> Avi Kivity wrote:
>   
>> Farkas Levente wrote:
>>     
>>>> There is the maint/ series on git.kernel.org.  It doesn't have formal
>>>> releases though.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> do you plan any formal release? and it'd be nice to see the relationship
>>> between the current devel tree and the stable tree to eg. last stable
>>> 0.5 current devel 0.78.
>>>   
>>>       
>> The key to a formal release is a formal test suite.  We've been building
>> one (for a long while) but it isn't in production yet.
>>
>> The plan is for it to be open so people can add their favorite guests,
>> to ensure they will not regress.
>>     
>
> the question is not when but what happened with those bugs which cause
> test fail? the problem currently not that we don't know problems, but
> there are many known bugs just the reason and the solution not known. so
>  test suite can't help too much here (may be find more bugs).
>
>   
Test suite will help since it's job is to run regression tests each 
night or even each commit.
Once a new regression is introduced it will immediately revert it.

Now, when we have only very poor, old regression suite, it does not 
happen so regressions
are detected by users, weeks after being committed.

We'll publish the test suite (based on autotest) next week. The more 
users will use it the better.
Anyway our maintainer will run it each night.
>>> on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
>>> any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
>>> we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use kvm
>>> in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
>>> case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
>>> anything else as a virtualization platform.
>>>   
>>>       
>> kvm is used in production on several products.  Just not the kvm-nn
>> releases I make.  The production versions of kvm are backed by testing,
>> which makes all the difference.  Slapping a 'stable' label over a
>> release doesn't make it so.
>>     
>
> there are many open source project which has stable and devel
> versions:-) actually almost all projects have a stable release along
> with the devel version. but kvm has not any in the last few years,
> that's why i think it's high time to stabilize 'a' version ie. frozen
> feature list and fix all known bugs.
>   
You're right about the need for stable release, that's the idea of the 
'maint' branches.
maint/2.6.26 for both kernel and userspace is stable (using userspace 
irqchip).
Now we'll stabilize another user/kernel pair based on 2.6.28

Thanks, Dor

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Farkas Levente]

Dor Laor wrote:
>>>> on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
>>>> any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
>>>> we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use
>>>> kvm
>>>> in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
>>>> case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
>>>> anything else as a virtualization platform.
>>>>         
>>> kvm is used in production on several products.  Just not the kvm-nn
>>> releases I make.  The production versions of kvm are backed by testing,
>>> which makes all the difference.  Slapping a 'stable' label over a
>>> release doesn't make it so.
>>>     
>>
>> there are many open source project which has stable and devel
>> versions:-) actually almost all projects have a stable release along
>> with the devel version. but kvm has not any in the last few years,
>> that's why i think it's high time to stabilize 'a' version ie. frozen
>> feature list and fix all known bugs.
>>   
> You're right about the need for stable release, that's the idea of the
> 'maint' branches.
> maint/2.6.26 for both kernel and userspace is stable (using userspace
> irqchip).
> Now we'll stabilize another user/kernel pair based on 2.6.28

that's a good news:-)
but does this means there will be a new kvm-x.y.z release and i can
build the userspace from it _and_ build a kmod for eg. the latest
rhel-5's kernel-2.6.18-92.1.18.el5? ie. i'll be able to install it on
rhel-5 a kvm and kvm-kmod and it'll work? or it'll just run on the not
even released 2.6.28 kernel?
and what is the relationship between maint release and kvm-nn and the
next stable release?
is there a tarball for the current maint release? and the same question
here can i build a kmod and userspace from that for rhel-5?

-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Dor Laor]

Farkas Levente wrote:
> Dor Laor wrote:
>   
>>>>> on the other hand the real question are you plan to somehow stabilize
>>>>> any of the following release in the near future? in the last 1.5 years
>>>>> we wait for this. or you currently not recommend and not plan to use
>>>>> kvm
>>>>> in production? it's also an option but would be useful to know. in this
>>>>> case we (and probably many others) switch to xen, virtualbox, vmware or
>>>>> anything else as a virtualization platform.
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> kvm is used in production on several products.  Just not the kvm-nn
>>>> releases I make.  The production versions of kvm are backed by testing,
>>>> which makes all the difference.  Slapping a 'stable' label over a
>>>> release doesn't make it so.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> there are many open source project which has stable and devel
>>> versions:-) actually almost all projects have a stable release along
>>> with the devel version. but kvm has not any in the last few years,
>>> that's why i think it's high time to stabilize 'a' version ie. frozen
>>> feature list and fix all known bugs.
>>>   
>>>       
>> You're right about the need for stable release, that's the idea of the
>> 'maint' branches.
>> maint/2.6.26 for both kernel and userspace is stable (using userspace
>> irqchip).
>> Now we'll stabilize another user/kernel pair based on 2.6.28
>>     
>
> that's a good news:-)
> but does this means there will be a new kvm-x.y.z release and i can
> build the userspace from it _and_ build a kmod for eg. the latest
> rhel-5's kernel-2.6.18-92.1.18.el5? ie. i'll be able to install it on
> rhel-5 a kvm and kvm-kmod and it'll work? or it'll just run on the not
> even released 2.6.28 kernel?
> and what is the relationship between maint release and kvm-nn and the
> next stable release?
> is there a tarball for the current maint release? and the same question
> here can i build a kmod and userspace from that for rhel-5?
>
>   
As always you'll have the option of using kvm as a kernel module.
So even if the stable branch is based on 2.6.28, you can always take the
kvm bits through 'make -C kernel sync LINUX=PATH' in the userspace.

RE: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Martin Maurer]

Hi,

We integrated kvm-75 in our Proxmox VE 1.0 (http://pve.proxmox.com) as this was a quite stable release.
We regularly test the most common Linux Distros and Windows (32 and 64 bit, including vista, 2008, windows7 (pre-beta)).

76 and 77 got some issues with 64-bit windows, but they seemed fixed in 78. We got a fast growing user base (see http://www.proxmox.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11). So if you go for Proxmox VE you have a good change you get a tested and quite reliable KVM platform now and in future. 

We did already migrations projects from VMware, XEN and others to Proxmox VE, including production MS Exchange 2003 servers with very good results.

Best Regards,

Martin Maurer

martin@proxmox.com
http://www.proxmox.com

____________________________________________________________________
Proxmox Server Solutions GmbH
Kohlgasse 51/10, 1050 Vienna, Austria
Phone: +43 1 545 4497 11 Fax: +43 1 545 4497 22
Commercial register no.: FN 258879 f
Registration office: Handelsgericht Wien


> -----Original Message-----
> From: kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org [mailto:kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org] On
> Behalf Of Farkas Levente
> Sent: Sonntag, 09. November 2008 22:13
> To: KVM
> Subject: can we hope a stable version in the near future?
> 
> hi,
> i've to repeat myself old mail again:
> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095
> 
> i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
> people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
> extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
> problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
> latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
> 100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
> so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known bug
> and may be start a new branch for development asap.
> how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a stable
> release?
> i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
> stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
> point of view.
> 
> just my 2c:-(
> 
> --
>   Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: can we hope a stable version in the near future?

[Farkas Levente]

Martin Maurer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We integrated kvm-75 in our Proxmox VE 1.0 (http://pve.proxmox.com) as this was a quite stable release.
> We regularly test the most common Linux Distros and Windows (32 and 64 bit, including vista, 2008, windows7 (pre-beta)).

mandrake-10 can't boot on anything later then kvm-71:-(

> 76 and 77 got some issues with 64-bit windows, but they seemed fixed in 78. We got a fast growing user base (see http://www.proxmox.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11). So if you go for Proxmox VE you have a good change you get a tested and quite reliable KVM platform now and in future. 

fedora's latest kernel can't boot on 77 and 78 and see my other notes.

> We did already migrations projects from VMware, XEN and others to Proxmox VE, including production MS Exchange 2003 servers with very good results.
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Martin Maurer
> 
> martin@proxmox.com
> http://www.proxmox.com
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Proxmox Server Solutions GmbH
> Kohlgasse 51/10, 1050 Vienna, Austria
> Phone: +43 1 545 4497 11 Fax: +43 1 545 4497 22
> Commercial register no.: FN 258879 f
> Registration office: Handelsgericht Wien
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org [mailto:kvm-owner@vger.kernel.org] On
>> Behalf Of Farkas Levente
>> Sent: Sonntag, 09. November 2008 22:13
>> To: KVM
>> Subject: can we hope a stable version in the near future?
>>
>> hi,
>> i've to repeat myself old mail again:
>> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.emulators.kvm.devel/18095
>>
>> i see there is a lots of development in kvm lately. there are many
>> people working on many thing, but most of them improvements and
>> extensions. and those who read the list can see there are many basic
>> problems too. rhel/centos-5 host can't boot mandrake-10 guest, fedora
>> latest kernel guest, rhel/centos-5 x86-64 guest crash during boot,
>> 100%cpu usage, rhes-4 can't boot etc.
>> so imho it'd be useful to release a kvm version which fix all known bug
>> and may be start a new branch for development asap.
>> how long do you plan to keep kvm in a development stage without a stable
>> release?
>> i know it'll be a bit complicated to maintain 4 different tree (devel,
>> stable x kernel, userspace), but it'd be very useful from the user's
>> point of view.
>>
>> just my 2c:-(
>>
>> --
>>   Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe kvm" in
>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 


-- 
  Levente                               "Si vis pacem para bellum!"