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From: Sean Christopherson <seanjc@google.com>
To: Ackerley Tng <ackerleytng@google.com>
Cc: Patrick Roy <roypat@amazon.co.uk>,
	quic_eberman@quicinc.com, tabba@google.com,  jgg@nvidia.com,
	peterx@redhat.com, david@redhat.com, rientjes@google.com,
	 fvdl@google.com, jthoughton@google.com, pbonzini@redhat.com,
	 zhiquan1.li@intel.com, fan.du@intel.com, jun.miao@intel.com,
	 isaku.yamahata@intel.com, muchun.song@linux.dev,
	mike.kravetz@oracle.com,  erdemaktas@google.com,
	vannapurve@google.com, qperret@google.com,  jhubbard@nvidia.com,
	willy@infradead.org, shuah@kernel.org,  brauner@kernel.org,
	bfoster@redhat.com, kent.overstreet@linux.dev,  pvorel@suse.cz,
	rppt@kernel.org, richard.weiyang@gmail.com,  anup@brainfault.org,
	haibo1.xu@intel.com, ajones@ventanamicro.com,
	 vkuznets@redhat.com, maciej.wieczor-retman@intel.com,
	pgonda@google.com,  oliver.upton@linux.dev,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
	 kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-kselftest@vger.kernel.org,
	linux-fsdevel@kvack.org,  jgowans@amazon.com,
	kalyazin@amazon.co.uk, derekmn@amazon.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 30/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Handle folio preparation for guest_memfd mmap
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:56:45 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <ZwWOfXd9becAm4lH@google.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <diqz1q0qtqnd.fsf@ackerleytng-ctop.c.googlers.com>

On Tue, Oct 08, 2024, Ackerley Tng wrote:
> Patrick Roy <roypat@amazon.co.uk> writes:
> > For the "non-CoCo with direct map entries removed" VMs that we at AWS
> > are going for, we'd like a VM type with host-controlled in-place
> > conversions which doesn't zero on transitions,

Hmm, your use case shouldn't need conversions _for KVM_, as there's no need for
KVM to care if userspace or the guest _wants_ a page to be shared vs. private.
Userspace is fully trusted to manage things; KVM simply reacts to the current
state of things.

And more importantly, whether or not the direct map is zapped needs to be a
property of the guest_memfd inode, i.e. can't be associated with a struct kvm.
I forget who got volunteered to do the work, but we're going to need similar
functionality for tracking the state of individual pages in a huge folio, as
folio_mark_uptodate() is too coarse-grained.  I.e. at some point, I expect that
guest_memfd will make it easy-ish to determine whether or not the direct map has
been obliterated.

The shared vs. private attributes tracking in KVM is still needed (I think), as
it communicates what userspace _wants_, whereas he guest_memfd machinery will
track what the state _is_.

> > so if KVM_X86_SW_PROTECTED_VM ends up zeroing, we'd need to add another new
> > VM type for that.

Maybe we should sneak in a s/KVM_X86_SW_PROTECTED_VM/KVM_X86_SW_HARDENED_VM rename?
The original thought behind "software protected VM" was to do a slow build of
something akin to pKVM, but realistically I don't think that idea is going anywhere.

Alternatively, depending on how KVM accesses guest memory that's been removed from
the direct map, another solution would be to allow "regular" VMs to bind memslots
to guest_memfd, i.e. if the non-CoCo use case needs/wnats to bind all memory to
guest_memfd, not just "private" mappings.

That's probably the biggest topic of discussion: how do we want to allow mapping
guest_memfd into the guest, without direct map entries, but while still allowing
KVM to access guest memory as needed, e.g. for shadow paging.  One approach is
your RFC, where KVM maps guest_memfd pfns on-demand.

Another (slightly crazy) approach would be use protection keys to provide the
security properties that you want, while giving KVM (and userspace) a quick-and-easy
override to access guest memory.

 1. mmap() guest_memfd into userpace with RW protections
 2. Configure PKRU to make guest_memfd memory inaccessible by default
 3. Swizzle PKRU on-demand when intentionally accessing guest memory

It's essentially the same idea as SMAP+STAC/CLAC, just applied to guest memory
instead of to usersepace memory.

The benefit of the PKRU approach is that there are no PTE modifications, and thus
no TLB flushes, and only the CPU that is access guest memory gains temporary
access.  The big downside is that it would be limited to modern hardware, but
that might be acceptable, especially if it simplifies KVM's implementation.

> > Somewhat related sidenote: For VMs that allow inplace conversions and do
> > not zero, we do not need to zap the stage-2 mappings on memory attribute
> > changes, right?

See above.  I don't think conversions by toggling the shared/private flag in
KVM's memory attributes is the right fit for your use case.

  reply	other threads:[~2024-10-08 19:56 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 130+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-09-10 23:43 [RFC PATCH 00/39] 1G page support for guest_memfd Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 01/39] mm: hugetlb: Simplify logic in dequeue_hugetlb_folio_vma() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 02/39] mm: hugetlb: Refactor vma_has_reserves() to should_use_hstate_resv() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 03/39] mm: hugetlb: Remove unnecessary check for avoid_reserve Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 04/39] mm: mempolicy: Refactor out policy_node_nodemask() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-11 16:46   ` Gregory Price
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 05/39] mm: hugetlb: Refactor alloc_buddy_hugetlb_folio_with_mpol() to interpret mempolicy instead of vma Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 06/39] mm: hugetlb: Refactor dequeue_hugetlb_folio_vma() to use mpol Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 07/39] mm: hugetlb: Refactor out hugetlb_alloc_folio Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 08/39] mm: truncate: Expose preparation steps for truncate_inode_pages_final Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 09/39] mm: hugetlb: Expose hugetlb_subpool_{get,put}_pages() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 10/39] mm: hugetlb: Add option to create new subpool without using surplus Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 11/39] mm: hugetlb: Expose hugetlb_acct_memory() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 12/39] mm: hugetlb: Move and expose hugetlb_zero_partial_page() Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 13/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Make guest mem use guest mem inodes instead of anonymous inodes Ackerley Tng
2025-04-02  4:01   ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-23 20:22     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-04-24  3:53       ` Yan Zhao
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 14/39] KVM: guest_memfd: hugetlb: initialization and cleanup Ackerley Tng
2024-09-20  9:17   ` Vishal Annapurve
2024-10-01 23:00     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-12-01 17:59   ` Peter Xu
2025-02-13  9:47     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-02-26 18:55       ` Ackerley Tng
2025-03-06 17:33   ` Peter Xu
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 15/39] KVM: guest_memfd: hugetlb: allocate and truncate from hugetlb Ackerley Tng
2024-09-13 22:26   ` Elliot Berman
2024-10-03 20:23     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-30  9:01   ` Jun Miao
2025-02-11  1:21     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-12-01 17:55   ` Peter Xu
2025-02-13  7:52     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-02-13 16:48       ` Peter Xu
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 16/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Add page alignment check for hugetlb guest_memfd Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 17/39] KVM: selftests: Add basic selftests for hugetlb-backed guest_memfd Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 18/39] KVM: selftests: Support various types of backing sources for private memory Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 19/39] KVM: selftests: Update test for various private memory backing source types Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 20/39] KVM: selftests: Add private_mem_conversions_test.sh Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 21/39] KVM: selftests: Test that guest_memfd usage is reported via hugetlb Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 22/39] mm: hugetlb: Expose vmemmap optimization functions Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 23/39] mm: hugetlb: Expose HugeTLB functions for promoting/demoting pages Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 24/39] mm: hugetlb: Add functions to add/move/remove from hugetlb lists Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 25/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Split HugeTLB pages for guest_memfd use Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 26/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Track faultability within a struct kvm_gmem_private Ackerley Tng
2024-10-10 16:06   ` Peter Xu
2024-10-11 23:32     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-15 21:34       ` Peter Xu
2024-10-15 23:42         ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-16  8:45           ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-16 20:16             ` Peter Xu
2024-10-16 22:51               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-16 23:49                 ` Peter Xu
2024-10-16 23:54                   ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-17 14:58                     ` Peter Xu
2024-10-17 16:47                       ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-17 17:05                         ` Peter Xu
2024-10-17 17:10                           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-17 19:11                             ` Peter Xu
2024-10-17 19:18                               ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-17 19:29                                 ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-18  7:15                                 ` Patrick Roy
2024-10-18  7:50                                   ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-18  9:34                                     ` Patrick Roy
2024-10-17 17:11                         ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-17 17:16                           ` Jason Gunthorpe
2024-10-17 17:55                             ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-17 18:26                             ` Vishal Annapurve
2024-10-17 14:56                   ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-17 15:02               ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-16  8:50           ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-16 10:48             ` Vishal Annapurve
2024-10-16 11:54               ` David Hildenbrand
2024-10-16 11:57                 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2025-02-25 20:37   ` Peter Xu
2025-04-23 22:07     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 27/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Allow mmapping guest_memfd files Ackerley Tng
2025-01-20 22:42   ` Peter Xu
2025-04-23 20:25     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-03-04 23:24   ` Peter Xu
2025-04-02  4:07   ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-23 20:28     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:43 ` [RFC PATCH 28/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Use vm_type to determine default faultability Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 29/39] KVM: Handle conversions in the SET_MEMORY_ATTRIBUTES ioctl Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 30/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Handle folio preparation for guest_memfd mmap Ackerley Tng
2024-09-16 20:00   ` Elliot Berman
2024-10-03 21:32     ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-03 23:43       ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-08 19:30         ` Sean Christopherson
2024-10-07 15:56       ` Patrick Roy
2024-10-08 18:07         ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-08 19:56           ` Sean Christopherson [this message]
2024-10-09  3:51             ` Manwaring, Derek
2024-10-09 13:52               ` Andrew Cooper
2024-10-10 16:21             ` Patrick Roy
2024-10-10 19:27               ` Manwaring, Derek
2024-10-17 23:16               ` Ackerley Tng
2024-10-18  7:10                 ` Patrick Roy
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 31/39] KVM: selftests: Allow vm_set_memory_attributes to be used without asserting return value of 0 Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 32/39] KVM: selftests: Test using guest_memfd memory from userspace Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 33/39] KVM: selftests: Test guest_memfd memory sharing between guest and host Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 34/39] KVM: selftests: Add notes in private_mem_kvm_exits_test for mmap-able guest_memfd Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 35/39] KVM: selftests: Test that pinned pages block KVM from setting memory attributes to PRIVATE Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 36/39] KVM: selftests: Refactor vm_mem_add to be more flexible Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 37/39] KVM: selftests: Add helper to perform madvise by memslots Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 38/39] KVM: selftests: Update private_mem_conversions_test for mmap()able guest_memfd Ackerley Tng
2024-09-10 23:44 ` [RFC PATCH 39/39] KVM: guest_memfd: Dynamically split/reconstruct HugeTLB page Ackerley Tng
2025-04-03 12:33   ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-23 22:02     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-04-24  1:09       ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-24  4:25         ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-24  5:55           ` Chenyi Qiang
2025-04-24  8:13             ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-24 14:10               ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-04-24 18:15                 ` Ackerley Tng
2025-04-25  4:02                   ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-25 22:45                     ` Ackerley Tng
2025-04-28  1:05                       ` Yan Zhao
2025-04-28 19:02                         ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-04-30 20:09                         ` Ackerley Tng
2025-05-06  1:23                           ` Yan Zhao
2025-05-06 19:22                             ` Ackerley Tng
2025-05-07  3:15                               ` Yan Zhao
2025-05-13 17:33                                 ` Ackerley Tng
2024-09-11  6:56 ` [RFC PATCH 00/39] 1G page support for guest_memfd Michal Hocko
2024-09-14  1:08 ` Du, Fan
2024-09-14 13:34   ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-01-28  9:42 ` Amit Shah
2025-02-03  8:35   ` Ackerley Tng
2025-02-06 11:07     ` Amit Shah
2025-02-07  6:25       ` Ackerley Tng

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