Thinkpad T40 Fan

Thinkpad T40 Fan

[ben lamothe]

Hi, I have an IBM Thinkpad T40 and the fan won't shut off.  If the
computer is left idle after power on, after about five minutes the
fan turns on and stays on seemingly for hours.  This behavior is not
exibited in Windows, on the contrary, the fan is almost never on.  Using
the thermal zone driver from acpi, I've noticed that the fan is on for
temperatures as low as 86 degrees.  

I am using kernel 2.6.2-rc2-mm1 and I have acpi, sleep states, battery,
button, fan, processor, thermal zone, and relaxed aml all compiled in,
and I also notice the problem using kernel 2.6.0 and kernel 2.4.23.  I
also have cpu frequency scaling support, all three governors (userspace
as default), cpu frequency table helpers, acpi processor p-states and,
since this a centrino machine, Enhanced speedstep all compiled in my
kernel.  I have tried using both Cpufreqd and Cpudynd to scale the cpu,
which they do smoothly according to /proc/cpuinfo, but the fan still
persistently stays on.  Can anyone help me with this?

Thank you very much,

-ben lamothe



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RE: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[Li, Shaohua]

Hi,
ACPI can't control fan in many IBM systems, including T40. DSDT of T40 has no fan device defined.

Thanks,
-david
> -----Original Message-----
> From: acpi-devel-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org [mailto:acpi-devel-
> admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of ben lamothe
> Sent: 2004年2月4日 19:13
> To: acpi-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Subject: [ACPI] Thinkpad T40 Fan
> 
> Hi, I have an IBM Thinkpad T40 and the fan won't shut off.  If the
> computer is left idle after power on, after about five minutes the
> fan turns on and stays on seemingly for hours.  This behavior is not
> exibited in Windows, on the contrary, the fan is almost never on.  Using
> the thermal zone driver from acpi, I've noticed that the fan is on for
> temperatures as low as 86 degrees.
> 
> I am using kernel 2.6.2-rc2-mm1 and I have acpi, sleep states, battery,
> button, fan, processor, thermal zone, and relaxed aml all compiled in,
> and I also notice the problem using kernel 2.6.0 and kernel 2.4.23.  I
> also have cpu frequency scaling support, all three governors (userspace
> as default), cpu frequency table helpers, acpi processor p-states and,
> since this a centrino machine, Enhanced speedstep all compiled in my
> kernel.  I have tried using both Cpufreqd and Cpudynd to scale the cpu,
> which they do smoothly according to /proc/cpuinfo, but the fan still
> persistently stays on.  Can anyone help me with this?
> 
> Thank you very much,
> 
> -ben lamothe
> 
> 
> 
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RE: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[Brown, Len]

>> This behavior is not exibited in Windows,
>> on the contrary, the fan is almost never on.

> ACPI can't control fan in many IBM systems,
> including T40. DSDT of T40 has no fan device defined.

Hmm, how can Windows keep the fan off but Linux can't?

As there is no ACPI fan device, there must be a different method to
control the fan on this box.

1. It may be some i2c device that Windows knows about but Linux does
not?
   Maybe IBM ships some platform specific software with windows?
   Would be interesting to know if a from-scratch install of the
   generic non-IBM windows was still able to keep the fan off.

2. It may be some BIOS code using SMM that Linux somehow breaks?

3. It may be done entirely in hardware without the knowledge of the OS?

I'm hopeful that it is #3, and that Windows is simply doing better
passive cooling than Linux -- and perhaps we can perhaps improve our
passive cooling...

Can you run some experiments?  Maybe you can monitor the temperature in
windows to see if it really is cooler.  Perhaps you can experiment with
the power management policy settings such that it is in high-power mode
instead of maximum battery mode and observe the temperature rises, and
at what temperature the fan starts running?

Thanks,
-Len


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Re: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[ben lamothe]

Thanks for the reply.  I tried to find a utility that monitored
temperature in windows, but I was completely unsuccessful.  Do you know
of any?  I was able to notice that after running windows for about three
hours without the fan ever coming on, immediately after booting linux,
the temperature was 107F, and the temperature is usually in the mid 80's
from a cold boot.  The fan came on after about 30 seconds, alot faster
than normal (usually takes 10-15 minutes).

I haven't noticed a consistent starting temperature for the fan, but
generally it starts when it gets around 95F. I havn't noticed a stopping
temperature either.  As I said, I've noticed the fan running at temps as
low as 80-85F.  If I leave my room window open, then the fan shuts off
after about 30 mins, but the THMO driver tells me that the temp is
around 90F, which is really weird because I have definitely heard it
loud and kicking at temps well below that.

I vaguely remember the fan staying on after installing windows from
scratch, but i am not completely sure as that was a long time ago and I
didn't know about this fan problem, so I wasn't looking out for it.  The
vast majority of my other hardware didn't work either, I had to call and
get restore cd's to get things working.  

I don't think that it's an I^2C device, because I think the
documentation given to me by IBM would list such a thing, but I may be
wrong.

Out of your list of choices, it seems like #2 is most likely, because I
can't imagine why a fan needs to run for a processor at a temp of 90F,
so I don't think it's totally hardware.  The fact that the fan is on so
much may be a failsafe that IBM put in place just in case the OS doesn't
know how to control the fan effectively, but that's just a guess.

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 21:44:14 -0500
"Brown, Len" <len.brown-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> >> This behavior is not exibited in Windows,
> >> on the contrary, the fan is almost never on.
> 
> > ACPI can't control fan in many IBM systems,
> > including T40. DSDT of T40 has no fan device defined.
> 
> Hmm, how can Windows keep the fan off but Linux can't?
> 
> As there is no ACPI fan device, there must be a different method to
> control the fan on this box.
> 
> 1. It may be some i2c device that Windows knows about but Linux does
> not?
>    Maybe IBM ships some platform specific software with windows?
>    Would be interesting to know if a from-scratch install of the
>    generic non-IBM windows was still able to keep the fan off.
> 
> 2. It may be some BIOS code using SMM that Linux somehow breaks?
> 
> 3. It may be done entirely in hardware without the knowledge of the
> OS?
> 
> I'm hopeful that it is #3, and that Windows is simply doing better
> passive cooling than Linux -- and perhaps we can perhaps improve our
> passive cooling...
> 
> Can you run some experiments?  Maybe you can monitor the temperature
> in windows to see if it really is cooler.  Perhaps you can experiment
> with the power management policy settings such that it is in
> high-power mode instead of maximum battery mode and observe the
> temperature rises, and at what temperature the fan starts running?
> 
> Thanks,
> -Len




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RE: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[Ow Mun Heng]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ben lamothe [mailto:blamothe-DPNOqEs/LNQ@public.gmane.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 7:13 PM
> To: acpi-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Subject: [ACPI] Thinkpad T40 Fan
> 
> 
> Hi, I have an IBM Thinkpad T40 and the fan won't shut off.  If the
> computer is left idle after power on, after about five minutes the
> fan turns on and stays on seemingly for hours.  This behavior is not
> exibited in Windows, on the contrary, the fan is almost never 
> on.  Using
> the thermal zone driver from acpi, I've noticed that the fan is on for
> temperatures as low as 86 degrees.  


what does ls -l /proc/acpi/fan/* says??
In My Dell D600, there's nothing there at all. and fan kicks in etc.

Yu,Luming mentioned its my DSDT prob.
workaround using the i8kfanutil which controls the fan. Now, it's 
working fine with temp control.


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RE: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[Ow Mun Heng]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1729 bytes --]



> -----Original Message-----
> From: acpi-devel-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Hmm, how can Windows keep the fan off but Linux can't?
> 
> As there is no ACPI fan device, there must be a different method to
> control the fan on this box.
> 
> 1. It may be some i2c device that Windows knows about but Linux does
> not?
>    Maybe IBM ships some platform specific software with windows?
>    Would be interesting to know if a from-scratch install of the
>    generic non-IBM windows was still able to keep the fan off.
> 
> 2. It may be some BIOS code using SMM that Linux somehow breaks?
> 
> 3. It may be done entirely in hardware without the knowledge 
> of the OS?
> 
> I'm hopeful that it is #3, and that Windows is simply doing better
> passive cooling than Linux -- and perhaps we can perhaps improve our
> passive cooling...
> 
> Can you run some experiments?  Maybe you can monitor the 
> temperature in
> windows to see if it really is cooler.  Perhaps you can 
> experiment with
> the power management policy settings such that it is in 
> high-power mode
> instead of maximum battery mode and observe the temperature rises, and
> at what temperature the fan starts running?


Hi,

	Mine's a D600 which DSDT also does not have fan control. (currently 
using i8kfanutil to control it) Under windows it works fine. The fan 
can/will come on/off whenever it gets hot (I didn't do the experiments
casuse I use Linux 95% of the time) The fan _can_ be controlled using a 3rd
party util called FanGui if IIRC. (sort of like i8kfan) but it works fine 
generally on it's own without it. 

I was under the impression that it was the BIOS that does this.


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Re: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[ben lamothe]

Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know of any third party utils
for linux that work with the thinkpad t40.  I ran across fantulence, but
lm_sensors was a dependency, and I couldn't install it because it was
incompatable, and damaging, to thinkpad hardware.

On Fri, 6 Feb 2004 11:16:09 +0800
"Ow Mun Heng" <ow.mun.heng-Sjgp3cTcYWE@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: acpi-devel-admin-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> > Hmm, how can Windows keep the fan off but Linux can't?
> > 
> > As there is no ACPI fan device, there must be a different method to
> > control the fan on this box.
> > 
> > 1. It may be some i2c device that Windows knows about but Linux does
> > not?
> >    Maybe IBM ships some platform specific software with windows?
> >    Would be interesting to know if a from-scratch install of the
> >    generic non-IBM windows was still able to keep the fan off.
> > 
> > 2. It may be some BIOS code using SMM that Linux somehow breaks?
> > 
> > 3. It may be done entirely in hardware without the knowledge 
> > of the OS?
> > 
> > I'm hopeful that it is #3, and that Windows is simply doing better
> > passive cooling than Linux -- and perhaps we can perhaps improve our
> > passive cooling...
> > 
> > Can you run some experiments?  Maybe you can monitor the 
> > temperature in
> > windows to see if it really is cooler.  Perhaps you can 
> > experiment with
> > the power management policy settings such that it is in 
> > high-power mode
> > instead of maximum battery mode and observe the temperature rises,
> > and at what temperature the fan starts running?
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 	Mine's a D600 which DSDT also does not have fan control.
> 	(currently 
> using i8kfanutil to control it) Under windows it works fine. The fan 
> can/will come on/off whenever it gets hot (I didn't do the experiments
> casuse I use Linux 95% of the time) The fan _can_ be controlled using
> a 3rd party util called FanGui if IIRC. (sort of like i8kfan) but it
> works fine generally on it's own without it. 
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the BIOS that does this.
> 
> 




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RE: Thinkpad T40 Fan

[Ow Mun Heng]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ben lamothe [mailto:blamothe-DPNOqEs/LNQ@public.gmane.org]
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 12:18 PM
> To: Ow Mun Heng
> Cc: len.brown-ral2JQCrhuEAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org; shaohua.li@intel.com; blamothe@MIT.EDU;
> acpi-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
> Subject: Re: [ACPI] Thinkpad T40 Fan
> 
> 
> Do you, or anyone else for that matter, know of any third party utils
> for linux that work with the thinkpad t40.  I ran across 

No idea there.. but you can try to see if i8kfan will work for you..

HTH


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