ACPI throttling to death?

ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

Hi,

I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a 2.6.9 
vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is a P III 
(Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is *not* a mobile 
processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16 throttling levels.

Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the notebook 
design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI temperature monitor 
shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts throttling.

Until here everything is fine IMO.
But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you can 
monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it reaches the 
last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is locked up hard, 
display still showing the current graphics. I guess it throttled to a 
"deathly" 0%...

Is this more a linux acpi problem or a fault in this particular machine?
What could be done about it? how can I debug further?

Thanks for any hints,
jan

-- 
Jan Frey
jfrey-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Mon, Apr 04, 2005 at 10:14:15PM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a 2.6.9 
> vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is a P III 
> (Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is *not* a mobile 
> processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16 throttling levels.

Hard to tell exactly.  Since there is 16 throttling levels the chipset
is probably not an intel one, and we weren't able to provide a speedstep
driver for chipset other than intel one for older laptops :(

> Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the notebook 
> design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI temperature monitor 
> shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts throttling.
> 
> Until here everything is fine IMO.
> But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you can 
> monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it reaches the 
> last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is locked up hard, 
> display still showing the current graphics. I guess it throttled to a 
> "deathly" 0%...

There isn't 0% level, so I guess the laptop stop due to overheat condition.
Is it possible to control cpu fan in that machine?  Is there by chance
support for power saving idling (at least C2)?
cat /proc/acpi/processor/*/power

Cheers,

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

On Tuesday 05 April 2005 17:59, Bruno Ducrot wrote:
> > Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the
> > notebook design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI
> > temperature monitor shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts
> > throttling.
> >
> > Until here everything is fine IMO.
> > But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you
> > can monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it
> > reaches the last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is
> > locked up hard, display still showing the current graphics. I guess it
> > throttled to a "deathly" 0%...
>
> There isn't 0% level, so I guess the laptop stop due to overheat
> condition. Is it possible to control cpu fan in that machine?  Is there

It is possible to control the fan at two states, but I'm already drinving 
it on the "loudest" one...

> by chance support for power saving idling (at least C2)?

Hmmm, if I recall correctly it had C1/C2, but I'm not 100% sure.

> cat /proc/acpi/processor/*/power

Currently I cannot get hold of that machine, I'll send you that ASAP.

Why doesn't throttling reduce CPU temp? It seems to be stuck at about 70 
degress all the time...

"Stop due to overheat" seems to be best explanation currently...

Br
Jan

-- 
Jan Frey
jfrey-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Stefan Dösinger]

Am Montag, 4. April 2005 20:14 schrieb Jan Frey:
> Hi,
>
> I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a 2.6.9
> vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is a P III
> (Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is *not* a mobile
> processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16 throttling levels.
>
> Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the notebook
> design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI temperature monitor
> shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts throttling.
>
> Until here everything is fine IMO.
> But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you can
> monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it reaches the
> last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is locked up hard,
> display still showing the current graphics. I guess it throttled to a
> "deathly" 0%...
>
> Is this more a linux acpi problem or a fault in this particular machine?
> What could be done about it? how can I debug further?
My desktop machine locked up if it got to hot(70-75 degrees, amd duron 
processor). I bought a better CPU fan and the problem is gone. Well, that's 
impossible on notebooks.

Is there a 0% throttling level? What happens if you stop processor hungry 
tasks to allow the machine to cool down?

Stefan


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

On Tuesday 05 April 2005 18:38, Stefan Dösinger wrote:
> Am Montag, 4. April 2005 20:14 schrieb Jan Frey:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a
> > 2.6.9 vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is
> > a P III (Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is
> > *not* a mobile processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16
> > throttling levels.
> >
> > Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the
> > notebook design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI
> > temperature monitor shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts
> > throttling.
> >
> > Until here everything is fine IMO.
> > But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you
> > can monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it
> > reaches the last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is
> > locked up hard, display still showing the current graphics. I guess it
> > throttled to a "deathly" 0%...
> >
> > Is this more a linux acpi problem or a fault in this particular
> > machine? What could be done about it? how can I debug further?
>
> My desktop machine locked up if it got to hot(70-75 degrees, amd duron
> processor). I bought a better CPU fan and the problem is gone. Well,
> that's impossible on notebooks.
>
> Is there a 0% throttling level? What happens if you stop processor
> hungry tasks to allow the machine to cool down?

No, there is no 0% level. Unfortunately this also does not seem to be 
related to any level of CPU utilization: sometimes the machines locks up 
even if it is nearly idle, e.g. writing/sending email...

Really astonishing: CPU temperature seems to go up to roughly 70 degrees 
quite quickly and then it stays there nearly forever: it does not matter 
whether CPU load is 0 or 1.. And: throttling also does not lower CPU temp, 
I thought this would be main reason...

Br
Jan


-- 
Jan Frey
jfrey-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:13:28PM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> Really astonishing: CPU temperature seems to go up to roughly 70 degrees 
> quite quickly and then it stays there nearly forever: it does not matter 
> whether CPU load is 0 or 1.. And: throttling also does not lower CPU temp, 
> I thought this would be main reason...

BTW, are you sure throttling work OK?
In order to test this, you may try something like 'openssl speed md5' for
each levels.  The results given should be roughly linear.

Also I'm wondering what is actually the output of ACPI tables.  Would
help if you do something like that:

wget ftp://ftp.kernel.org//pub/linux/kernel/people/lenb/acpi/utils/pmtools-20031210.tar.bz2
tar xjvfp pmtools-20031210.tar.bz2
cd pmtools-20031210/acpidmp
make
sudo ./acpidmp > acpidmp.out
bzip2 acpidmp.out 

Then mail me the acpidmp.out.bz2

I'm in fact more interrested with FADT and DSDT, but other tables
wont hurt.

I'm still wondering if I'm right to think that its not an intel
chipset.  If its an Intel one, then something is wrong.  Intel chipset
support 8 throttling levels, not 16.  Could you please do a lspci -v?

Cheers,

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

On Tuesday 05 April 2005 20:08, Bruno Ducrot wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 06:13:28PM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> > Really astonishing: CPU temperature seems to go up to roughly 70
> > degrees quite quickly and then it stays there nearly forever: it does
> > not matter whether CPU load is 0 or 1.. And: throttling also does not
> > lower CPU temp, I thought this would be main reason...
>
> BTW, are you sure throttling work OK?

At least you can notice remarkable slowdown and loss of responsiveness when 
throttling is supposed to be active. This effect is also dependent on the 
throttling level, the higher it is the more noticeable those delays are...
So at least on the "slow-down" side of things it seems to be working, but 
unfortunately it does not decrease CPU temp...

> Then mail me the acpidmp.out.bz2
 
I will do so as soon as possible.

> I'm still wondering if I'm right to think that its not an intel
> chipset.  If its an Intel one, then something is wrong.  Intel chipset
> support 8 throttling levels, not 16.  Could you please do a lspci -v?

Oh yes, I totally forgot. If I remember correctly it is some VIA chipset.
lspci output will also follow.

Br
Jan

-- 
Jan Frey
jfrey-Mmb7MZpHnFY@public.gmane.org


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 10:23:17PM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> > BTW, are you sure throttling work OK?
> 
> At least you can notice remarkable slowdown and loss of responsiveness when 
> throttling is supposed to be active. This effect is also dependent on the 
> throttling level, the higher it is the more noticeable those delays are...
> So at least on the "slow-down" side of things it seems to be working, but 
> unfortunately it does not decrease CPU temp...

Well...  BTW, throttling is only a way to force somehow a certain amount
of idle time to be done, somehow.  If you have some trouble even if the
system is mostly idle, throttling wont help.

> > Then mail me the acpidmp.out.bz2
>  
> I will do so as soon as possible.

OK, got it.  Will look.

> > I'm still wondering if I'm right to think that its not an intel
> > chipset.  If its an Intel one, then something is wrong.  Intel chipset
> > support 8 throttling levels, not 16.  Could you please do a lspci -v?
> 
> Oh yes, I totally forgot. If I remember correctly it is some VIA chipset.
> lspci output will also follow.

I remember that some southbridge are broken, though I'm only aware
problem with some PIIX4 (it is in an errata, I don't remember exactly
which version).  Maybe its the case here?
Does your laptop hang if forcing throttling level at 12%?

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

Hi,

this notebook seems to use C2 nearly all the time:

active state:            C2
default state:           C1
bus master activity:     00000000
states:
    C1:                  promotion[C2] demotion[--] latency[000] 
usage[00007950]
   *C2:                  promotion[--] demotion[C1] latency[020] 
usage[00742673]
    C3:                  <not supported>

Hey, yet another fascinating finding:
cat /proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling
state count:  16
active state:  T0
states:
   *T0:   00%
    T1:   06%
    T2:     12%
    T3:    18%
    T4:    24%
    T5:     31%
    T6:     37%
    T7:     43%
    T8:     49%
    T9:     55%
    T10:        62%
    T11:        68%
    T12:        74%
    T13:        80%
    T14:        86%
    T15:        93%

Now I did: echo 14 >/proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling 
what resulted in sever slow down of the machine. And then:
echo 15 >/proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling 
really caused the machine to hang!! So it seems to be T15 state that 
"kills" the machine!?

Two questions:
a) why does it get so hot that even throttling does not help? (It does not 
do so running Win2k)
b) why does it die in T15?

Br 
Jan

On Wednesday 06 April 2005 16:19, Bruno Ducrot wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 10:23:17PM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> > > BTW, are you sure throttling work OK?
> >
> > At least you can notice remarkable slowdown and loss of responsiveness
> > when throttling is supposed to be active. This effect is also
> > dependent on the throttling level, the higher it is the more
> > noticeable those delays are... So at least on the "slow-down" side of
> > things it seems to be working, but unfortunately it does not decrease
> > CPU temp...
>
> Well...  BTW, throttling is only a way to force somehow a certain amount
> of idle time to be done, somehow.  If you have some trouble even if the
> system is mostly idle, throttling wont help.
>
> > > Then mail me the acpidmp.out.bz2
> >
> > I will do so as soon as possible.
>
> OK, got it.  Will look.
>
> > > I'm still wondering if I'm right to think that its not an intel
> > > chipset.  If its an Intel one, then something is wrong.  Intel
> > > chipset support 8 throttling levels, not 16.  Could you please do a
> > > lspci -v?
> >
> > Oh yes, I totally forgot. If I remember correctly it is some VIA
> > chipset. lspci output will also follow.
>
> I remember that some southbridge are broken, though I'm only aware
> problem with some PIIX4 (it is in an errata, I don't remember exactly
> which version).  Maybe its the case here?
> Does your laptop hang if forcing throttling level at 12%?

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+
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! Taubenstr. 1      phone: 0234-3694671          !
! D-44789 Bochum    cell : 0175-1241106          !
! Germany                                        !
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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 11:53:30AM +0200, Jan Frey wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> this notebook seems to use C2 nearly all the time:
> 
> active state:            C2
> default state:           C1
> bus master activity:     00000000
> states:
>     C1:                  promotion[C2] demotion[--] latency[000] 
> usage[00007950]
>    *C2:                  promotion[--] demotion[C1] latency[020] 
> usage[00742673]
>     C3:                  <not supported>
> 
> Hey, yet another fascinating finding:
> cat /proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling
> state count:  16
> active state:  T0
> states:
>    *T0:   00%
>     T1:   06%
>     T2:     12%
>     T3:    18%
>     T4:    24%
>     T5:     31%
>     T6:     37%
>     T7:     43%
>     T8:     49%
>     T9:     55%
>     T10:        62%
>     T11:        68%
>     T12:        74%
>     T13:        80%
>     T14:        86%
>     T15:        93%
> 
> Now I did: echo 14 >/proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling 
> what resulted in sever slow down of the machine. And then:
> echo 15 >/proc/acpi/processor/CPU0/throttling 
> really caused the machine to hang!! So it seems to be T15 state that 
> "kills" the machine!?
> 
> Two questions:
> a) why does it get so hot that even throttling does not help? (It does not 
> do so running Win2k)

My only guess is that C2 is broken in the sense that the northbridge
and/or the southbridge are not configured properly.

Unfortunately, I don't have access to VIA datasheets (I've tryed two
times in the past.  Never got even a single answer).

> b) why does it die in T15?

single copy and past of one of an early email:

> > I remember that some southbridge are broken, though I'm only aware
> > problem with some PIIX4 (it is in an errata, I don't remember exactly
> > which version).  Maybe its the case here?
> > Does your laptop hang if forcing throttling level at 12%?

So I guess we have to implement a little quirk in order to not allow
T15 for that ALi southbridge...

Cheers,

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Fri, Apr 08, 2005 at 12:10:28PM +0200, Bruno Ducrot wrote:
> So I guess we have to implement a little quirk in order to not allow
> T15 for that ALi southbridge...
               ^^^
	       VIA (sorry)

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Thomas Renninger]

Jan Frey wrote:
> On Tuesday 05 April 2005 18:38, Stefan Dösinger wrote:
>>Am Montag, 4. April 2005 20:14 schrieb Jan Frey:
>>>Hi,
>>>
>>>I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a
>>>2.6.9 vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is
>>>a P III (Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is
>>>*not* a mobile processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16
>>>throttling levels.
>>>
>>>Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the
>>>notebook design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI
>>>temperature monitor shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts
>>>throttling.
>>>
>>>Until here everything is fine IMO.
>>>But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously (you
>>>can monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until it
>>>reaches the last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine is
>>>locked up hard, display still showing the current graphics. I guess it
>>>throttled to a "deathly" 0%...
>>>
>>>Is this more a linux acpi problem or a fault in this particular
>>>machine? What could be done about it? how can I debug further?
>>My desktop machine locked up if it got to hot(70-75 degrees, amd duron
>>processor). I bought a better CPU fan and the problem is gone. Well,
>>that's impossible on notebooks.
>>
>>Is there a 0% throttling level? What happens if you stop processor
>>hungry tasks to allow the machine to cool down?
> 
> No, there is no 0% level. Unfortunately this also does not seem to be 
> related to any level of CPU utilization: sometimes the machines locks up 
> even if it is nearly idle, e.g. writing/sending email...
> 
> Really astonishing: CPU temperature seems to go up to roughly 70 degrees 
> quite quickly and then it stays there nearly forever: it does not matter 
> whether CPU load is 0 or 1.. And: throttling also does not lower CPU temp, 
> I thought this would be main reason...

The temperature is fixed to exactly 70 C?
I saw machines where a fixed temperature is returned depending on some bit/byte
in EC/SystemIO.
Sounds like this one does the same?
You'll find out by going back the _TMP code in the DSDT.
The value should be about 0xD66 ((70+273)*10, right?)

     Thomas


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Jan Frey]

Hi,

this is all what can be found regarding _TMP in DSDT:
       
     Method (_TMP, 0, NotSerialized)
            {
                SHOW ("THRM_TMP")
                Store (\_SB.PCI0.PIB.PMRD (0xE7), Local0)
                Multiply (Local0, 0x0A, Local0)
                Add (Local0, 0x0AAA, Local0)
                If (LEqual (Local0, 0x0AAA))
                {
                    Return (0x0B72)
                }
                Else
                {
                    Return (Local0)
                }

                SHOW ("THRM_TMP Return")
                SHOW (Local0)
                Return (Local0)
            }

Unfortunately it does not tell me anything.. Only fixed value I can see is 
0xb72 and following your calculus it should result in 20 degrees, not 70.
Anyhow, I'm not so sure whether it is really stuck at 70 exactly, might be
that it also (quite randomly) reaches 69,71,etc. I'd have to investigate 
more detailed.

Br
jan


On Thursday 07 April 2005 13:12, Thomas Renninger wrote:
> Jan Frey wrote:
> > On Tuesday 05 April 2005 18:38, Stefan Dösinger wrote:
> >>Am Montag, 4. April 2005 20:14 schrieb Jan Frey:
> >>>Hi,
> >>>
> >>>I'm observing strange behaviour with a Gericom notebook running a
> >>>2.6.9 vanilla kernel with custom configuration. The processor used is
> >>>a P III (Tualatin) with 1.2GHz (which is quite rarely used). It is
> >>>*not* a mobile processor (no speedstep etc.), instead it supports 16
> >>>throttling levels.
> >>>
> >>>Sometimes (I guess when the machine is getting overheated - the
> >>>notebook design is really bad and the fan is quite lousy) ACPI
> >>>temperature monitor shows >70 degrees (Celsius) and the system starts
> >>>throttling.
> >>>
> >>>Until here everything is fine IMO.
> >>>But what happens next is that the systems slows down continuously
> >>> (you can monitor the current throttling level going up and up) until
> >>> it reaches the last level (12%). Soon after that the whole machine
> >>> is locked up hard, display still showing the current graphics. I
> >>> guess it throttled to a "deathly" 0%...
> >>>
> >>>Is this more a linux acpi problem or a fault in this particular
> >>>machine? What could be done about it? how can I debug further?
> >>
> >>My desktop machine locked up if it got to hot(70-75 degrees, amd duron
> >>processor). I bought a better CPU fan and the problem is gone. Well,
> >>that's impossible on notebooks.
> >>
> >>Is there a 0% throttling level? What happens if you stop processor
> >>hungry tasks to allow the machine to cool down?
> >
> > No, there is no 0% level. Unfortunately this also does not seem to be
> > related to any level of CPU utilization: sometimes the machines locks
> > up even if it is nearly idle, e.g. writing/sending email...
> >
> > Really astonishing: CPU temperature seems to go up to roughly 70
> > degrees quite quickly and then it stays there nearly forever: it does
> > not matter whether CPU load is 0 or 1.. And: throttling also does not
> > lower CPU temp, I thought this would be main reason...
>
> The temperature is fixed to exactly 70 C?
> I saw machines where a fixed temperature is returned depending on some
> bit/byte in EC/SystemIO.
> Sounds like this one does the same?
> You'll find out by going back the _TMP code in the DSDT.
> The value should be about 0xD66 ((70+273)*10, right?)
>
>      Thomas

-- 
+------------------------------------------------+
! Jan Frey          email: janfrey-S0/GAf8tV78@public.gmane.org        !
! Taubenstr. 1      phone: 0234-3694671          !
! D-44789 Bochum    cell : 0175-1241106          !
! Germany                                        !
+------------------------------------------------+


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Bruno Ducrot]

On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 01:12:34PM +0200, Thomas Renninger wrote:
> The temperature is fixed to exactly 70 C?
> I saw machines where a fixed temperature is returned depending on some bit/byte
> in EC/SystemIO.
> Sounds like this one does the same?
> You'll find out by going back the _TMP code in the DSDT.
> The value should be about 0xD66 ((70+273)*10, right?)

Most time its fixed to a low value in order to not
trigger all the thermal stuff.
(I also see one with a fixed 0xBAD which correspond to 26 C)

-- 
Bruno Ducrot

--  Which is worse:  ignorance or apathy?
--  Don't know.  Don't care.


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Re: ACPI throttling to death?

[Matthias Otto]

Hi,

I found this thread and was quite happy at first. It seems you describe my
problems with SUSE Linux 9.3 on Gericom M6T exactly. Problem: I know very little
about Linux and nothing about acpi stuff. So is there any solution for this
problem? 

By the way I worked with 9.2 version on this computer before. Same problem at
the beginning. But by any accident I found a package (which name I do not
remember any more) that I deinstalled and the laptop worked. I only had no power
management functions any more, but that was ok. Do you have any idea what
package that could have been? It was none of the acpi or apm packages.

Thanks in advance

Matthias



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