Options depending on STANDALONE

Options depending on STANDALONE

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 12:36:00PM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
> 
>  > > That is good to know.  But there is a kernel option which doesn't make 
>  > > much sense in that case:
>  > > 
>  > > [*] Select only drivers that don't need compile-time external firmware
>  > 
>  > No, that is very different.  That option is present if you don't want to
>  > build some firmware images from the source that is present in the kernel
>  > tree, and instead, use the pre-built stuff that is also present in the
>  > kernel tree.
> 
> You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)

We should also look at what drivers do depend on STANDALONE:
- some OSS drivers
- one DVB driver option (DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE)
- ACPI_CUSTOM_DSDT

The OSS drivers are more or less RIP, so let's ignore them.

Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
ALL other drivers work without such an option.

ACPI_CUSTOM_DSDT seems to be the most interesting case.
It's anyway not usable for distribution kernels, and AFAIR the ACPI 
people prefer to get the kernel working with all original DSDTs
(which usually work with at least one other OS) than letting the people 
workaround the problem by using a custom DSDT.

It might therefore be possile simply getting rid of CONFIG_STANDALONE?

> 		Dave

cu
Adrian

-- 

    Gentoo kernels are 42 times more popular than SUSE kernels among
    KLive users  (a service by SUSE contractor Andrea Arcangeli that
    gathers data about kernels from many users worldwide).

       There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
                                                    Benjamin Disraeli

Re: Options depending on STANDALONE

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 10:25:43PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> ACPI_CUSTOM_DSDT seems to be the most interesting case.
> It's anyway not usable for distribution kernels, and AFAIR the ACPI 
> people prefer to get the kernel working with all original DSDTs
> (which usually work with at least one other OS) than letting the people 
> workaround the problem by using a custom DSDT.

Not true at all.  For SuSE kernels, we have a patch that lets people
load a new DSDT from initramfs due to broken machines requiring a
replacement in order to work properly.

thanks,

greg k-h

Re: Options depending on STANDALONE

[Dave Jones]

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 01:28:07PM -0700, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote:
 > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 10:25:43PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
 > > ACPI_CUSTOM_DSDT seems to be the most interesting case.
 > > It's anyway not usable for distribution kernels, and AFAIR the ACPI 
 > > people prefer to get the kernel working with all original DSDTs
 > > (which usually work with at least one other OS) than letting the people 
 > > workaround the problem by using a custom DSDT.
 > 
 > Not true at all.  For SuSE kernels, we have a patch that lets people
 > load a new DSDT from initramfs due to broken machines requiring a
 > replacement in order to work properly.

Whilst this is a quick fix for users who either know how to hack DSDTs
themselves, or know where to get a fixed one, it doesn't solve the bigger
problem, that the interpretor doesn't get fixed.
And by 'fixed', I mean we aren't bug for bug compatible with that
other OS.  We need to be adding workarounds to the ACPI interpretor
so this stuff 'just works', not hiding from the problem and creating
"but it works in $otherdistro when I do this" scenarios.

		Dave

-- 
http://www.codemonkey.org.uk

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Trent Piepho]

On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
>
>
> Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> ALL other drivers work without such an option.

The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
done.

For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.

So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Adrian Bunk]

On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:40:25PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
> >
> >
> > Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> > ALL other drivers work without such an option.
> 
> The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
> or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
> with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
> FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
> done.
> 
> For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
> first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
> not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.
> 
> So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.

But is there a technical reason why this has to be done this way?

This is the onle (non-OSS) driver doing it this way, and Zach has a 
point that this is legally questionable.

cu
Adrian

-- 

    Gentoo kernels are 42 times more popular than SUSE kernels among
    KLive users  (a service by SUSE contractor Andrea Arcangeli that
    gathers data about kernels from many users worldwide).

       There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
                                                    Benjamin Disraeli

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Oliver Endriss]

Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:40:25PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > > > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > > > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > > > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
> > >
> > > Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> > > ALL other drivers work without such an option.
> > 
> > The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
> > or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
> > with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
> > FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
> > done.
> > 
> > For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
> > first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
> > not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.
> > 
> > So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.
> 
> But is there a technical reason why this has to be done this way?
> 
> This is the onle (non-OSS) driver doing it this way, and Zach has a 
> point that this is legally questionable.

This option _is_ useful because it allows allows a user to build an
av7110 driver without hotplug etc. I NAK any attempt to remove it.

Sorry, a kernel option cannot cause a legal issue. Only the user does.
For non-distribution kernels there is no difference whether firmware is
loaded at run-time or compiled-in.

Obviously, there might be a difference for distribution kernels if you
are not allowed to distribute the firmware (imho not a problem in this
case, but IANAL). Simple solution: Do not enable the option.

I have no problem if you want to remove STANDALONE: Simply remove the
dependency to STANDALONE, but keep DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE with default 'n'.

CU
Oliver

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------
VDR Remote Plugin available at
http://www.escape-edv.de/endriss/vdr/
--------------------------------------------------------

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Adrian Bunk]

On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 01:18:59PM +0200, Oliver Endriss wrote:
> Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:40:25PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> > > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > > > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > > > > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > > > > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > > > > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
> > > >
> > > > Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> > > > ALL other drivers work without such an option.
> > > 
> > > The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
> > > or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
> > > with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
> > > FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
> > > done.
> > > 
> > > For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
> > > first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
> > > not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.
> > > 
> > > So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.
> > 
> > But is there a technical reason why this has to be done this way?
> > 
> > This is the onle (non-OSS) driver doing it this way, and Zach has a 
> > point that this is legally questionable.
> 
> This option _is_ useful because it allows allows a user to build an
> av7110 driver without hotplug etc. I NAK any attempt to remove it.

If you look at the dependencies of DVB_AV7110 and the code in av7110.c 
you'll note that your statement "it allows allows a user to build an 
av7110 driver without hotplug" is not true.

> Sorry, a kernel option cannot cause a legal issue. Only the user does.
> For non-distribution kernels there is no difference whether firmware is
> loaded at run-time or compiled-in.
> 
> Obviously, there might be a difference for distribution kernels if you
> are not allowed to distribute the firmware (imho not a problem in this
> case, but IANAL). Simple solution: Do not enable the option.

The general direction in Linux kernel development is to load the 
firmware at runtime.

> I have no problem if you want to remove STANDALONE: Simply remove the
> dependency to STANDALONE, but keep DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE with default 'n'.

The point of STANDALONE are working allmodconfig/allyesconfig compiles.

Removing the dependency on STANDALONE therefore implies that it compiles.

> CU
> Oliver

cu
Adrian

-- 

    Gentoo kernels are 42 times more popular than SUSE kernels among
    KLive users  (a service by SUSE contractor Andrea Arcangeli that
    gathers data about kernels from many users worldwide).

       There are three kinds of lies: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.
                                                    Benjamin Disraeli

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Trent Piepho]

On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 01:18:59PM +0200, Oliver Endriss wrote:
> > Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:40:25PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > > > > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > > > > > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > > > > > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > > > > > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
> > > > >
> > > > > Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> > > > > ALL other drivers work without such an option.
> > > >
> > > > The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
> > > > or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
> > > > with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
> > > > FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
> > > > done.
> > > >
> > > > For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
> > > > first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
> > > > not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.
> > > >
> > > > So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.
> > >
> > > But is there a technical reason why this has to be done this way?

Is there another way to load firmware in a driver compiled into the kernel?

> > > This is the onle (non-OSS) driver doing it this way, and Zach has a
> > > point that this is legally questionable.

I know there are other DVB drivers that can have firmware compiled in
instead of using FW_LOADER.  They just don't show that ability in Kconfig,
you have to edit the driver to enable compiled in firmware.

> > This option _is_ useful because it allows allows a user to build an
> > av7110 driver without hotplug etc. I NAK any attempt to remove it.
>
> If you look at the dependencies of DVB_AV7110 and the code in av7110.c
> you'll note that your statement "it allows allows a user to build an
> av7110 driver without hotplug" is not true.

Looks like a mistake in the Kconfig file:
-	select FW_LOADER
+	select FW_LOADER if DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE=n

Re: [v4l-dvb-maintainer] Options depending on STANDALONE

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, Aug 14, 2006 at 02:15:26PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 01:18:59PM +0200, Oliver Endriss wrote:
> > > Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 04:40:25PM -0700, Trent Piepho wrote:
> > > > > On Thu, 3 Aug 2006, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 03:56:17PM -0400, Dave Jones wrote:
> > > > > > > You're describing PREVENT_FIRMWARE_BUILD.  The text Zach quoted is from
> > > > > > > STANDALONE, which is something else completely.  That allows us to not
> > > > > > > build drivers that pull in things from /etc and the like during compile.
> > > > > > > (Whoever thought that was a good idea?)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE really still required?
> > > > > > ALL other drivers work without such an option.
> > > > >
> > > > > The other DVB drivers that need firmware load it when the device is opened
> > > > > or used (ie.  a channel is tuned).  At least for the ones I'm familiar
> > > > > with.  If they are compiled directly into the kernel, they can still use
> > > > > FW_LOADER since the loading won't happen until utill well after booting is
> > > > > done.
> > > > >
> > > > > For AV7110, it looks like the firmware loading is done when the driver is
> > > > > first initialized.  If AV7110 is compiled into the kernel, FW_LOADER can
> > > > > not be used.  The filesystem with the firmware won't be mounted yet.
> > > > >
> > > > > So AV7110 has an option to compile a firmware file into the driver.
> > > >
> > > > But is there a technical reason why this has to be done this way?
> 
> Is there another way to load firmware in a driver compiled into the kernel?

The CONFIG_DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE=n code should work fine.

> > > > This is the onle (non-OSS) driver doing it this way, and Zach has a
> > > > point that this is legally questionable.
> 
> I know there are other DVB drivers that can have firmware compiled in
> instead of using FW_LOADER.  They just don't show that ability in Kconfig,
> you have to edit the driver to enable compiled in firmware.
> 
> > > This option _is_ useful because it allows allows a user to build an
> > > av7110 driver without hotplug etc. I NAK any attempt to remove it.
> >
> > If you look at the dependencies of DVB_AV7110 and the code in av7110.c
> > you'll note that your statement "it allows allows a user to build an
> > av7110 driver without hotplug" is not true.
> 
> Looks like a mistake in the Kconfig file:
> -	select FW_LOADER
> +	select FW_LOADER if DVB_AV7110_FIRMWARE=n

Sure, it could be fixed.

But the fact that it didn't work doesn't create a strong reason for 
keeping it.

And the whole "kernel without hotplug" is anyway no longer possible in 
the usual CONFIG_EMBEDDED=n case.

cu
Adrian

-- 

       "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
        of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
       "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
                                       Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed