problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

Dear ACPI developers,
 
I have a problem with my Acer Travelmate 233.
 
Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
 
So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
 
I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
then forgotten).
 
I do not have the skills to program this myself, so
instead I offer a prize of USD 1000 to the person(s) that
can give me a patch for kernel 2.6 and appropiate documentation
that can solve the above problem. The patch needs to be GPL,
and demonstrably run on my laptop. I need the patch before
2004-10-01, after what date the prize offer expires.
 
I would like that the patch was written in a general way to cover for
CPUs that burn considerable power in idle loop and other states, so that
other users can benefit from it. Also I would prefer that the patch be
rolled into the normal ACPI kernel source tree, but the latter request
is not a condition for the prize.
 
Best regards
Keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Michael Frank]

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:35:13 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Dear ACPI developers,
>I have a problem with my Acer Travelmate 233.
>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> then forgotten).
>I do not have the skills to program this myself, so
> instead I offer a prize of USD 1000 to the person(s) that
> can give me a patch for kernel 2.6 and appropiate documentation
> that can solve the above problem. The patch needs to be GPL,
> and demonstrably run on my laptop. I need the patch before
> 2004-10-01, after what date the prize offer expires.
>I would like that the patch was written in a general way to cover for
> CPUs that burn considerable power in idle loop and other states, so that
> other users can benefit from it. Also I would prefer that the patch be
> rolled into the normal ACPI kernel source tree, but the latter request
> is not a condition for the prize.
>

Nice idea but it wont be possible to program it as your hardware powers
the CPU which takes 5w while it is powered. There is no partitioning
which allows you to remove power from the CPU while running the rest
and I am not aware of any system or standards which provide this kind
of partitioning...

	Sorry
	Michael


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:40:04AM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:35:13 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> >Dear ACPI developers,
> >I have a problem with my Acer Travelmate 233.
> >Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> >and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> >it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> >I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> >Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> >stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> >So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> >while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> >be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> >going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> >I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> >on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> >reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> >then forgotten).
> >I do not have the skills to program this myself, so
> >instead I offer a prize of USD 1000 to the person(s) that
> >can give me a patch for kernel 2.6 and appropiate documentation
> >that can solve the above problem. The patch needs to be GPL,
> >and demonstrably run on my laptop. I need the patch before
> >2004-10-01, after what date the prize offer expires.
> >I would like that the patch was written in a general way to cover for
> >CPUs that burn considerable power in idle loop and other states, so that
> >other users can benefit from it. Also I would prefer that the patch be
> >rolled into the normal ACPI kernel source tree, but the latter request
> >is not a condition for the prize.
> >
> 
> Nice idea but it wont be possible to program it as your hardware powers
> the CPU which takes 5w while it is powered. There is no partitioning
> which allows you to remove power from the CPU while running the rest
> and I am not aware of any system or standards which provide this kind
> of partitioning...

Well, I don't know so much about ACPI, but I thought that you in S2
could shut down devices individually, and then at the end for my
purpose shut down the CPU completely, like a suspend to memory.
But maybe this is not doable.

Best regards
Keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Michael Frank]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:46:38 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:40:04AM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:35:13 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-yTTtVnc/hhA@public.gmane.orgk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Dear ACPI developers,
>> >I have a problem with my Acer Travelmate 233.
>> >Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
>> >and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
>> >it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
>> >I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
>> >Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
>> >stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>> >So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
>> >while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
>> >be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
>> >going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>> >I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
>> >on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
>> >reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
>> >then forgotten).
>> >I do not have the skills to program this myself, so
>> >instead I offer a prize of USD 1000 to the person(s) that
>> >can give me a patch for kernel 2.6 and appropiate documentation
>> >that can solve the above problem. The patch needs to be GPL,
>> >and demonstrably run on my laptop. I need the patch before
>> >2004-10-01, after what date the prize offer expires.
>> >I would like that the patch was written in a general way to cover for
>> >CPUs that burn considerable power in idle loop and other states, so that
>> >other users can benefit from it. Also I would prefer that the patch be
>> >rolled into the normal ACPI kernel source tree, but the latter request
>> >is not a condition for the prize.
>> >
>>
>> Nice idea but it wont be possible to program it as your hardware powers
>> the CPU which takes 5w while it is powered. There is no partitioning
>> which allows you to remove power from the CPU while running the rest
>> and I am not aware of any system or standards which provide this kind
>> of partitioning...
>
> Well, I don't know so much about ACPI, but I thought that you in S2
> could shut down devices individually, and then at the end for my
> purpose shut down the CPU completely, like a suspend to memory.
> But maybe this is not doable.
>

Again it's a nice idea.

Again, It is a HW issue not ACPI issue because ACPI can only do
what the HW supports.

Also looked at datasheets and the rule of the game is that high
performance CPU's draw 20% to 70%f of their maximum power
statically. This is due to leakage of those 10s - soon 100s of
millions of transistors.

What you are asking is to put the CPU into S2 while the system
does not notice.  You want CPU to respond to IO like keystrokes and
mouse, the cursor should blink (I assume you don't need play videos),
the kernels clock gets updated, all without using electricity when
it's truly idle.

The keystrokes and mouse could be handled by 8042 equivalent,
starting the CPU, but what about the cursor driven by X and other
interrupts and DMA by peripherials which are active?

Your CPU Powersupply would have to go from 0V to normal conditions
for every action required and CPU state would have to be restored the
little job done and state saved and CPU powered down again.

Todays  HW _can_not_ do this at all. Theoretical best case latency of
core  power supplies will be several milliseconds from 0V, which is
too slow to handle individual interrupts.

Perhaps one day they fix the leakage problems (they do better all the
time) or come up with a multi core CPU which has an slow core doing
100s of MHz to keep things idling along and a facility to decouple the
multi GHz core(s) for power down unless really needed.

Then the OEM's (mainboard designers) have to support that kind of
partitioned CPU power supply and ACPI  could do S2 for the high
power CPU cores....

	Best Regards
	Michael



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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 11:52:37PM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 14:46:38 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> >On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 01:40:04AM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
> >>On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:35:13 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-8HOPs2i1G8k@public.gmane.orgdk>
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>Dear ACPI developers,
> >>>I have a problem with my Acer Travelmate 233.
> >>>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> >>>and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> >>>it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> >>>I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> >>>Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> >>>stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> >>>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> >>>while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> >>>be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> >>>going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> >>>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> >>>on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> >>>reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> >>>then forgotten).
> >>>I do not have the skills to program this myself, so
> >>>instead I offer a prize of USD 1000 to the person(s) that
> >>>can give me a patch for kernel 2.6 and appropiate documentation
> >>>that can solve the above problem. The patch needs to be GPL,
> >>>and demonstrably run on my laptop. I need the patch before
> >>>2004-10-01, after what date the prize offer expires.
> >>>I would like that the patch was written in a general way to cover for
> >>>CPUs that burn considerable power in idle loop and other states, so that
> >>>other users can benefit from it. Also I would prefer that the patch be
> >>>rolled into the normal ACPI kernel source tree, but the latter request
> >>>is not a condition for the prize.
> >>>
> >>
> >>Nice idea but it wont be possible to program it as your hardware powers
> >>the CPU which takes 5w while it is powered. There is no partitioning
> >>which allows you to remove power from the CPU while running the rest
> >>and I am not aware of any system or standards which provide this kind
> >>of partitioning...
> >
> >Well, I don't know so much about ACPI, but I thought that you in S2
> >could shut down devices individually, and then at the end for my
> >purpose shut down the CPU completely, like a suspend to memory.
> >But maybe this is not doable.
> >
> 
> Again it's a nice idea.
> 
> Again, It is a HW issue not ACPI issue because ACPI can only do
> what the HW supports.

I don't know if the HW supports it, or it is the BIOS or what needs to
be done. But I know that the SW can shut down the CPU, and then be
awaken by keyboard keystrokes.

> What you are asking is to put the CPU into S2 while the system
> does not notice.  You want CPU to respond to IO like keystrokes and
> mouse, the cursor should blink (I assume you don't need play videos),
> the kernels clock gets updated, all without using electricity when
> it's truly idle.

It does not matter if the screen does not blink.

> The keystrokes and mouse could be handled by 8042 equivalent,
> starting the CPU, but what about the cursor driven by X and other
> interrupts and DMA by peripherials which are active?

My idea was that new keystrokes or mouse movements would be considered 
ACPI events that - after the CPU has been shut down - can awake the
system again.

I dont know what other DMA activities should be honored, for my purpose
I believe DMA can be ignored - or maybe treated as an ACPI event.
In the first try on this, it could be ignored.

The cursor - why should it move - if no program is running?

> Your CPU Powersupply would have to go from 0V to normal conditions
> for every action required and CPU state would have to be restored the
> little job done and state saved and CPU powered down again.

Yes, I think that should be done.

> Todays  HW _can_not_ do this at all. Theoretical best case latency of
> core  power supplies will be several milliseconds from 0V, which is
> too slow to handle individual interrupts.

Maybe in the wakeup phase there will be no other interrupts?
For my use, just reading the screen, and then taking to the keyboard or
the mouse, I would not expect other interrupts. It would be acceptable
to me if other interrupts were not handled during the startup of the
CPU. I think startup would last 50 - 100 ms, which is acceptable
to me, I think I would still save considerable power.


> Perhaps one day they fix the leakage problems (they do better all the
> time) or come up with a multi core CPU which has an slow core doing
> 100s of MHz to keep things idling along and a facility to decouple the
> multi GHz core(s) for power down unless really needed.

Yes, but that would not improve things on my current laptop.

Best regards
Keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>  
> So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>  
> I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> then forgotten).
>  

S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
in this mode?
-- 
64 bytes from 195.113.31.123: icmp_seq=28 ttl=51 time=448769.1 ms         



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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2004 at 10:40:09PM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> > and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> > it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> > I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> > Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> > stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> >  
> > So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> > while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> > be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> > going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> >  
> > I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> > on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> > reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> > then forgotten).
> >  
> 
> S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> in this mode?

Maybe S1 is what could do this. I understand that I could not then have
the clock updated every second but every minute would work, and even if 
the screen was not updated every minute it would be fine. But I would
expect the clock to be accurate when the cpu is started again.

Best regards
Keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > > Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> > > and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> > > it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> > > I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> > > Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> > > stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> > >  
> > > So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> > > while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> > > be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> > > going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> > >  
> > > I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> > > on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> > > reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> > > then forgotten).
> > >  
> > 
> > S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> > do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> > in this mode?
> 
> Maybe S1 is what could do this. I understand that I could not then have
> the clock updated every second but every minute would work, and even if 
> the screen was not updated every minute it would be fine. But I would
> expect the clock to be accurate when the cpu is started again.

Can you verify that your hardware can do S1? (cat /proc/acpi/sleep).

								Pavel
-- 
People were complaining that M$ turns users into beta-testers...
...jr ghea gurz vagb qrirybcref, naq gurl frrz gb yvxr vg gung jnl!


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 12:10:19AM +0200, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
> > > > Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> > > > and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> > > > it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> > > > I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> > > > Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> > > > stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> > > >  
> > > > So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> > > > while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> > > > be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> > > > going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> > > >  
> > > > I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> > > > on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> > > > reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> > > > then forgotten).
> > > >  
> > > 
> > > S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> > > do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> > > in this mode?
> > 
> > Maybe S1 is what could do this. I understand that I could not then have
> > the clock updated every second but every minute would work, and even if 
> > the screen was not updated every minute it would be fine. But I would
> > expect the clock to be accurate when the cpu is started again.
> 
> Can you verify that your hardware can do S1? (cat /proc/acpi/sleep).

It says:
S0 S3 S4 S5

/sys/power/state says:

standby mem disk

Best regards
keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Michael Frank]

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:40:09 +0200, Pavel Machek <pavel-AlSwsSmVLrQ@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
>> Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
>> and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
>> it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
>> I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
>> Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
>> stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>>
>> So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
>> while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
>> be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
>> going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>>
>> I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
>> on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
>> reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
>> then forgotten).
>>
>
> S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> in this mode?

Which hardware can power down the CPU on its own?


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> >>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> >>and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> >>it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> >>I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> >>Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> >>stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> >>
> >>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> >>while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> >>be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> >>going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> >>
> >>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> >>on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> >>reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> >>then forgotten).
> >>
> >
> >S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> >do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> >in this mode?
> 
> Which hardware can power down the CPU on its own?

I thought that CPU powered down is pretty much definition S1.

								Pavel
-- 
People were complaining that M$ turns users into beta-testers...
...jr ghea gurz vagb qrirybcref, naq gurl frrz gb yvxr vg gung jnl!


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Michael Frank]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:11:11 +0200, Pavel Machek <pavel-+ZI9xUNit7I@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
>> >>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
>> >>and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
>> >>it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
>> >>I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
>> >>Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
>> >>stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>> >>
>> >>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
>> >>while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
>> >>be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
>> >>going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>> >>
>> >>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
>> >>on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
>> >>reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
>> >>then forgotten).
>> >>
>> >
>> >S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
>> >do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
>> >in this mode?
>>
>> Which hardware can power down the CPU on its own?
>
> I thought that CPU powered down is pretty much definition S1.
>

Please refer to http://acpi.sourceforge.net/documentation/sleep.html
and ACPI spec 2.0a around Page 216

"Sleep States
	S1 - "Stopgrant"
	Power to cpu is maintained, but no instructions are executed.
	The CPU halts itself and may shut down many of its internal
	 components. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby" command
	is associated with this state by default.
"

If you look at the original post, S1 "Stopgrant" costs 5W on his celeron. It takes a lot
more on many 90nm chips. I read in the Centrino datasheet that it can draw 15W
stopgrant at  _maximum_ vcore!!!. The maximum  possible power consumption is only 25W!.
Now, that is life with modern CMOS, leakage is most of the power consumption....
I think it will improve but 1:3 is the best you can expect for multi GHZ CPU's.

The transmeta i am  typing takes only 0.5W in Stopgrant but is performace is much less at
"full power" of 5W/600MHz. Its standby to full power ration is 1:10, vs 2:3 for P4EE's...

So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the rest running ?

As to ACPI there should be a S2.5 state, or a S3 extension to power down the CPU and run the rest...

So, I stick to the validity of my original post :)

	Michael






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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 10:16:31PM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:11:11 +0200, Pavel Machek <pavel-+ZI9xUNit7I@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> 
> >Hi!
> >
> >>>>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
> >>>>and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
> >>>>it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
> >>>>I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
> >>>>Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
> >>>>stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
> >>>>
> >>>>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
> >>>>while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
> >>>>be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
> >>>>going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
> >>>>
> >>>>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
> >>>>on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
> >>>>reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
> >>>>then forgotten).
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
> >>>do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
> >>>in this mode?
> >>
> >>Which hardware can power down the CPU on its own?
> >
> >I thought that CPU powered down is pretty much definition S1.
> >
> 
> Please refer to http://acpi.sourceforge.net/documentation/sleep.html
> and ACPI spec 2.0a around Page 216
> 
> "Sleep States
> 	S1 - "Stopgrant"
> 	Power to cpu is maintained, but no instructions are executed.
> 	The CPU halts itself and may shut down many of its internal
> 	 components. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby" command
> 	is associated with this state by default.
> "

Well, I think what I want is S2, from the same document:

     S2

     While defined in the spec, this state is not currently in use. It
     resembles S3 with the qualification that some devices are permitted to
     remain on.

     S3 - "Suspend to RAM"

     All power to the cpu is shut off, and the contents of its registers are
     flushed to RAM, which remains on. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby"
     command can be associated with this state if enabled in the BIOS.
     Because it requires a high degree of coordination between the cpu,
     chipset, devices, OS, BIOS, and OS device drivers, this system state is
     the most prone to errors and instability.
     Pavel Machek has created a small document with some hints how to solve
     problems with S3. You can find it in the kernel sources at
     Documentation/power/tricks.txt.
     S3 is currently _not_ supported by the 2.4.x kernel series in Linux.


I would like the CPU to power down, save things in memory, and then
still have the screen and associated hardware on, and possibly also the
keyboard and mouse if that is needed to capture an ACPI event, including
the actual keystroke. This seems to be S2. I am not sure if all of S2
needs to be implemented to do what I asked for, I just would like the
functionality I described.

> If you look at the original post, S1 "Stopgrant" costs 5W on his celeron. 
> It takes a lot
> more on many 90nm chips. I read in the Centrino datasheet that it can draw 
> 15W
> stopgrant at  _maximum_ vcore!!!. The maximum  possible power consumption 
> is only 25W!.
> Now, that is life with modern CMOS, leakage is most of the power 
> consumption....
> I think it will improve but 1:3 is the best you can expect for multi GHZ 
> CPU's.

According to that, then what I ask for could also be beneficial to
centrino CPU's. 

> So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the 
> rest running ?

I thought this was something that most mainboards would support, given
that we make the appropiate SW in the kernel. 

Another thing is that if a mainboard/BIOS supports ACPI, then it should
actually support all of ACPI, including S2 support. Or am I wrong?

> As to ACPI there should be a S2.5 state, or a S3 extension to power down 
> the CPU and run the rest...

I thought S2 was actually powering down the cpu, saving all registers
and things in memory, like S3, and then leaving some devices on. As I have read it,
this is clean S2, and not a 2.5 level. But I am not an ACPI expert.

best regards
keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> > Please refer to http://acpi.sourceforge.net/documentation/sleep.html
> > and ACPI spec 2.0a around Page 216
> > 
> > "Sleep States
> > 	S1 - "Stopgrant"
> > 	Power to cpu is maintained, but no instructions are executed.
> > 	The CPU halts itself and may shut down many of its internal
> > 	 components. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby" command
> > 	is associated with this state by default.
> > "
> 
> Well, I think what I want is S2, from the same document:
> 
>      S2
> 
>      While defined in the spec, this state is not currently in use. It
>      resembles S3 with the qualification that some devices are permitted to
>      remain on.
...

> I would like the CPU to power down, save things in memory, and then
> still have the screen and associated hardware on, and possibly also the
> keyboard and mouse if that is needed to capture an ACPI event, including
> the actual keystroke. This seems to be S2. I am not sure if all of S2
> needs to be implemented to do what I asked for, I just would like the
> functionality I described.

Unfortunately, your machine does not support S2. Actually, I do not
know any machine that does.

> > So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the 
> > rest running ?
> 
> I thought this was something that most mainboards would support, given
> that we make the appropiate SW in the kernel. 
> 
> Another thing is that if a mainboard/BIOS supports ACPI, then it should
> actually support all of ACPI, including S2 support. Or am I wrong?

You are wrong at this. It is completely okay to support ACPI but no
sleep states at all (for example).
								Pavel
-- 
People were complaining that M$ turns users into beta-testers...
...jr ghea gurz vagb qrirybcref, naq gurl frrz gb yvxr vg gung jnl!


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Michael Frank]

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:37:54 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 10:16:31PM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:11:11 +0200, Pavel Machek <pavel-+ZI9xUNit7I@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>>
>> >Hi!
>> >
>> >>>>Many times I just want to read the screen, eg emails or documents,
>> >>>>and then still the cpu will be in idle mode, where
>> >>>>it uses 7.5 W out of the about 15 W that the whole machine uses.
>> >>>>I have found out from Intel data sheets that my
>> >>>>Mobile Intel Celeron 2.0 GHz CPU consumes 7.5 W in idle loop/
>> >>>>stop grant/sleep states, (and 5.0 W i deep sleep state).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>So I would like to have the CPU stopped completely (consuming 0 W)
>> >>>>while I still could read the screen. In that way I should
>> >>>>be able to have about double the lifetime on the battery,
>> >>>>going to about 7 hours from the 3.5 hours I have now.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>I would like the machine to wake up again by any keystroke
>> >>>>on the keyboard or mouse input. I would like the input to be
>> >>>>reacted upon (not just used to wake up the system, and
>> >>>>then forgotten).
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>S1 is what you want... but... if you get what you asked for,
>> >>>do you realize that for example clock would not update on the desktop
>> >>>in this mode?
>> >>
>> >>Which hardware can power down the CPU on its own?
>> >
>> >I thought that CPU powered down is pretty much definition S1.
>> >
>>
>> Please refer to http://acpi.sourceforge.net/documentation/sleep.html
>> and ACPI spec 2.0a around Page 216
>>
>> "Sleep States
>> 	S1 - "Stopgrant"
>> 	Power to cpu is maintained, but no instructions are executed.
>> 	The CPU halts itself and may shut down many of its internal
>> 	 components. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby" command
>> 	is associated with this state by default.
>> "
>
> Well, I think what I want is S2, from the same document:
>
>      S2
>
>      While defined in the spec, this state is not currently in use. It
>      resembles S3 with the qualification that some devices are permitted to
>      remain on.

"some devices" could include the CPU - fair enough!

>
>      S3 - "Suspend to RAM"
>
>      All power to the cpu is shut off, and the contents of its registers are
>      flushed to RAM, which remains on. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby"
>      command can be associated with this state if enabled in the BIOS.
>      Because it requires a high degree of coordination between the cpu,
>      chipset, devices, OS, BIOS, and OS device drivers, this system state is
>      the most prone to errors and instability.
>      Pavel Machek has created a small document with some hints how to solve
>      problems with S3. You can find it in the kernel sources at
>      Documentation/power/tricks.txt.
>      S3 is currently _not_ supported by the 2.4.x kernel series in Linux.
>
>
> I would like the CPU to power down, save things in memory, and then
> still have the screen and associated hardware on, and possibly also the
> keyboard and mouse if that is needed to capture an ACPI event, including
> the actual keystroke. This seems to be S2. I am not sure if all of S2
> needs to be implemented to do what I asked for, I just would like the
> functionality I described.
>
>> If you look at the original post, S1 "Stopgrant" costs 5W on his celeron.
>> It takes a lot
>> more on many 90nm chips. I read in the Centrino datasheet that it can draw
>> 15W
>> stopgrant at  _maximum_ vcore!!!. The maximum  possible power consumption
>> is only 25W!.
>> Now, that is life with modern CMOS, leakage is most of the power
>> consumption....
>> I think it will improve but 1:3 is the best you can expect for multi GHZ
>> CPU's.
>
> According to that, then what I ask for could also be beneficial to
> centrino CPU's.

It would be benefitial to most CPU's also desktops.

>
>> So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the
>> rest running ?
>
> I thought this was something that most mainboards would support, given
> that we make the appropiate SW in the kernel.

If you want to depower the CPU, you have to depower its bridge
connections as well,  _No_  Mainboard especially the chipsets
can do that. . ... also need a seperate set of main regulators for the
CPU.

The software side would be mostly CPU part of S3.

>
> Another thing is that if a mainboard/BIOS supports ACPI, then it should
> actually support all of ACPI, including S2 support. Or am I wrong?

All optional by the spec. You get S0, and S5 and S4 and S3 when you
are  lucky. Got a P4 with S1 and S3, but its DSDT is so buggy I run
it with ACPI=off and use swsusp 2 on 2.4.

>
>> As to ACPI there should be a S2.5 state, or a S3 extension to power down
>> the CPU and run the rest...
>
> I thought S2 was actually powering down the cpu, saving all registers
> and things in memory, like S3, and then leaving some devices on. As I have read it,
> this is clean S2, and not a 2.5 level. But I am not an ACPI expert.

It could be, provided someone writes a spec on how to power the CPU down
while keeping the rest running and the manufacturers implement it.

ACPI  for Linux implements the spec and supports features supported
by hardware. I suggest you discuss in a PC hardware forum.

	Best Regards
	Michael


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Keld Jørn Simonsen]

On Thu, Jul 01, 2004 at 08:03:34AM +0800, Michael Frank wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 19:37:54 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld-6PR53cSIHaE@public.gmane.org> 
> wrote:
> 
> >Well, I think what I want is S2, from the same document:
> >
> >     S2
> >
> >     While defined in the spec, this state is not currently in use. It
> >     resembles S3 with the qualification that some devices are permitted to
> >     remain on.
> 
> "some devices" could include the CPU - fair enough!

Well, I thought all these S0/S1/S2/S3/S4/S5 states were about halting
the CPU, in different ways. So the question is how the CPU is stopped.
Sometimes it is in standby, somtimes it is with all cpu registers saved
to memory, sometimes it is with everything saved to disk.

S2 would then be: Save CPU registers to memory, power down CPU
completely, keep RAM powered on, and then keep some other devices on,
according to some user defined settings.

My understanding is that S2 is not fully implemented in ACPI, that is
why S2 is not reported as working for my machine.

> >>So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the
> >>rest running ?
> >
> >I thought this was something that most mainboards would support, given
> >that we make the appropiate SW in the kernel.
> 
> If you want to depower the CPU, you have to depower its bridge
> connections as well,  _No_  Mainboard especially the chipsets
> can do that. . ... also need a seperate set of main regulators for the
> CPU.
> 
> The software side would be mostly CPU part of S3.

Yes, the software would mostly be S3.

I don't understand why it is not possible to just have  the screen powerd
on. What I think is needed is that the memory for the screen be on, the
screen controller, maybe some PCI bus, and then the screen itself.
But I am not a hardware expert.

> >
> >>As to ACPI there should be a S2.5 state, or a S3 extension to power down
> >>the CPU and run the rest...
> >
> >I thought S2 was actually powering down the cpu, saving all registers
> >and things in memory, like S3, and then leaving some devices on. As I have 
> >read it,
> >this is clean S2, and not a 2.5 level. But I am not an ACPI expert.
> 
> It could be, provided someone writes a spec on how to power the CPU down
> while keeping the rest running and the manufacturers implement it.
> 
> ACPI  for Linux implements the spec and supports features supported
> by hardware. I suggest you discuss in a PC hardware forum.

Any suggestions for a good hardware ACPI discussion list?

Best regards
keld


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Re: problem with cpu eating too much power, prize given if solved

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> Please refer to http://acpi.sourceforge.net/documentation/sleep.html
> and ACPI spec 2.0a around Page 216
> 
> "Sleep States
> 	S1 - "Stopgrant"
> 	Power to cpu is maintained, but no instructions are executed.
> 	The CPU halts itself and may shut down many of its internal
> 	 components. In Microsoft Windows, the "Standby" command
> 	is associated with this state by default.
> "
> 
> If you look at the original post, S1 "Stopgrant" costs 5W on his celeron. 
> It takes a lot
> more on many 90nm chips. I read in the Centrino datasheet that it can draw 
> 15W
> stopgrant at  _maximum_ vcore!!!. The maximum  possible power consumption 
> is only 25W!.
> Now, that is life with modern CMOS, leakage is most of the power 
> consumption....
> I think it will improve but 1:3 is the best you can expect for multi GHZ 
> CPU's.
> 
> The transmeta i am  typing takes only 0.5W in Stopgrant but is performace 
> is much less at
> "full power" of 5W/600MHz. Its standby to full power ration is 1:10, vs 2:3 
> for P4EE's...
> 
> So again, which (mainboard/notebook) HW does depower the CPU and keeps the 
> rest running ?

> As to ACPI there should be a S2.5 state, or a S3 extension to power down 
> the CPU and run the rest...

Does not that look close to S2?

> So, I stick to the validity of my original post :)

Okay, looks like I was wrong.

								Pavel
-- 
People were complaining that M$ turns users into beta-testers...
...jr ghea gurz vagb qrirybcref, naq gurl frrz gb yvxr vg gung jnl!


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