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To: Willy Tarreau References: <8cf503db-ac4c-a546-13c0-aac6da5c073b@broadcom.com> <20210218165104.GC2013@sasha-vm> <00b9e2fb-d818-58d6-edae-4dbd6aa814f7@gmail.com> <20210218182050.GB15217@1wt.eu> <20210218210037.GA16034@1wt.eu> From: Scott Branden Message-ID: <2007a142-34e6-b59a-4c4a-1569ab33163b@broadcom.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 14:38:42 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20210218210037.GA16034@1wt.eu> X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.8.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20210218_173847_501813_F7C25B35 X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 28.75 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Sasha Levin , Florian Fainelli , Greg Kroah-Hartman , LKML , BCM Kernel Feedback , Linux ARM Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6471205436584638039==" Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org --===============6471205436584638039== Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000089019a05bba3ff8e" --00000000000089019a05bba3ff8e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Willy, On 2021-02-18 1:00 p.m., Willy Tarreau wrote: > On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 12:16:50PM -0800, Scott Branden wrote: >> On 2021-02-18 10:36 a.m., Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: >>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 07:20:50PM +0100, Willy Tarreau wrote: >>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 06:53:56PM +0100, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: >>>>> On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 09:21:13AM -0800, Florian Fainelli wrote: >>>>>> As a company, we are most likely shooting ourselves in the foot by not >>>>>> having a point of coordination with the Linux Foundation and key people >>>>>> like you, Greg and other participants in the stable kernel. >>>>> >>>>> What does the LF have to do with this? >>>>> >>>>> We are here, on the mailing lists, working with everyone. Just test the >>>>> -rc releases we make and let us know if they work or not for you, it's >>>>> not a lot of "coordination" needed at all. >>>>> >>>>> Otherwise, if no one is saying that they are going to need these for 6 >>>>> years and are willing to use it in their project (i.e. and test it), >>>>> there's no need for us to maintain it for that long, right? >>>> >>>> Greg, please remember I expressed I really need them for slightly more than >>>> 3 years (say 3.5-4) :-) I'm fine with helping a bit more as time permits if >>>> this saves me from having to take over these kernels after you, like in the >>>> past, but I cannot engage on the regularity of my availability. >>> >>> Ok, great! >>> >>> That's one person/company saying they can help out (along with what CIP >>> has been stating.) >>> >>> What about others? Broadcom started this conversation, odd that they >>> don't seem to want to help out :) >> Greg, I'm sorry but I'm not in a position to provide such a commitment. > > Are you at least in a position to defend that ? There are necessarily > some people in your company who understand the benefits of using open > source provdided for free by others and who understand that devoting > a few people's time to this task is extremely cheap compared to the > amount of work required by having to do it entirely yourself for a > lower quality. > >> My original question arose because the 5.10 kernel is declared as 2 years LTS >> while older LTS kernels are now 6 years. > (...) >> If all LTS kernels were declared as 3.5-4 years as Willy commented this would >> solve a few issues. 6 year LTS kernels would only have a maximum 1 year >> lifespan over the latest declared LTS kernel. Also, many products take a year >> or more to develop, there isn't any life left in an LTS kernel if it is only >> 2 years. > > We all have the same problem regarding this but how do you want Greg to > engage into such a task by himself if he's not certain he can count on > others to help ? The few of us having worked on extended kernels know > that there's a limit around 2.5 years beyond which backports become much > harder to perform and to test. Doing it every year would result in 6 LTS > kernels to maintain in addition to the last 1-2 stable ones. That becomes > a huge amount of work! I even think that having one LTS kernel every 2 > years but maintained one extra year (e.g. 5 vs 4 in my case) would reduce > the effort. > >> After 1-3 years of kernel age the relevant parties that want to invest and >> care about supporting specific kernel versions longer should become apparent >> and could commit to longer support. > > But that's exactly what's currently being done. Greg initially commits > to 2 years hoping to get some help to pursue this longer, and this causes > trouble to some of us not being certain upfront whether or not we're choosing > the right kernel. So only the solution I'm seeing is for Greg to know > early who jumps in so that those of us without the power or skill to > entirely maintain a kernel by themselves know early which version to > choose. Quite frankly if we ship an LTS kernel in a product, the least > we can do is to give back a little bit to make sure the situation remains > durable. > > As such even if you are not in a position to provide such a commitment, > I'd appreciate it if you would bring these arguments to those who are in > such a position, so that I don't end up as one of the too few ones having > to share a significant part of that task to make sure this valuable kernel > continues to exist. Thanks - will forward such info as necessary. > > Thanks, > Willy > --00000000000089019a05bba3ff8e Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQRQYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQNjCCEDICAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg2aMIIE6DCCA9CgAwIBAgIOSBtqCRO9gCTKXSLwFPMwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwTDEgMB4GA1UE CxMXR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBSb290IENBIC0gUjMxEzARBgNVBAoTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24xEzARBgNVBAMT Ckdsb2JhbFNpZ24wHhcNMTYwNjE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMjQwNjE1MDAwMDAwWjBdMQswCQYDVQQGEwJC RTEZMBcGA1UEChMQR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBudi1zYTEzMDEGA1UEAxMqR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBQZXJzb25h bFNpZ24gMiBDQSAtIFNIQTI1NiAtIEczMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA tpZok2X9LAHsYqMNVL+Ly6RDkaKar7GD8rVtb9nw6tzPFnvXGeOEA4X5xh9wjx9sScVpGR5wkTg1 fgJIXTlrGESmaqXIdPRd9YQ+Yx9xRIIIPu3Jp/bpbiZBKYDJSbr/2Xago7sb9nnfSyjTSnucUcIP ZVChn6hKneVGBI2DT9yyyD3PmCEJmEzA8Y96qT83JmVH2GaPSSbCw0C+Zj1s/zqtKUbwE5zh8uuZ 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