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Thu, 7 May 2026 02:25:54 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: <461ec995935e2b42a8414f6f87063ff2557bbfb4.camel@linux.ibm.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH] ima: debugging late_initcall_sync measurements From: Mimi Zohar To: Paul Moore Cc: Yeoreum Yun , Jonathan McDowell , linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-integrity@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, kvmarm@lists.linux.dev, jmorris@namei.org, serge@hallyn.com, roberto.sassu@huawei.com, dmitry.kasatkin@gmail.com, eric.snowberg@oracle.com, jarkko@kernel.org, jgg@ziepe.ca, sudeep.holla@kernel.org, maz@kernel.org, oupton@kernel.org, joey.gouly@arm.com, suzuki.poulose@arm.com, yuzenghui@huawei.com, catalin.marinas@arm.com, will@kernel.org, noodles@meta.com, sebastianene@google.com In-Reply-To: <19dfb0e2730.2843.85c95baa4474aabc7814e68940a78392@paul-moore.com> References: <7734099f5e7fda5480bca016a9e6707983325fbd.camel@linux.ibm.com> <9f188536f09a2db30877d6bfbb84aeaf2565cccf.camel@linux.ibm.com> <5debff82dc758d9c91223e4f1f5b9e39a3fcd4f5.camel@linux.ibm.com> <19dfb0e2730.2843.85c95baa4474aabc7814e68940a78392@paul-moore.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 06 May 2026 22:25:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.2 (3.56.2-2.fc42) X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-Proofpoint-Reinject: loops=2 maxloops=12 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details-Enc: AW1haW4tMjYwNTA3MDAxOSBTYWx0ZWRfXznX1S+sn/9ll +ZDtGoPGjMHt1C52ETaGJiR87dSppgUqbTeQ5kM8saz3fOvWSKFElBgefGfZN0uth+5dO9QObYr wWJcR+RvLTnH2bvFzY7fyHruQhhkgijL1w9gI7fdYWzlwf90hd4vo7ta835xG/B7r+gAOUrbLzk Im0kk5Vh0+gYv6BuCkouHaTV4DJnzzmWeGlcOlGAg4lThkM0IYZu1a6fcs/sq1zcIvVEQz2wgeX yMXwi+OT1rJklihGuP8Dz3IOUv7287TYbQ32hted2YyHkX4hHoWacBjQ4Ca5zs/7IoJ73EBGQx6 HoJwfgR1JGH814cKRrDqlwngwhNag3+UkePRvjwYBqiIeVpyy1lhiqnU18j1toLN+b6TmFsqkCW FaOwmSJdU7/xsP2oufP2abA3YWld2PD/laBOW8mDgPOGtasjCYhH2ZqOHl1NSylQCQKORF9fFRZ i0va2bRZhRNtJAcWHSA== X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: IVuvrxwTYJaZAGiHieI9ElLz5NfcZcOI X-Proofpoint-GUID: dFBLB4dzcWwnvHt3QZOfaoUD7XzIN8YQ X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=W7UIkxWk c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=69fbf837 cx=c_pps a=bLidbwmWQ0KltjZqbj+ezA==:117 a=bLidbwmWQ0KltjZqbj+ezA==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=NGcC8JguVDcA:10 a=VkNPw1HP01LnGYTKEx00:22 a=RnoormkPH1_aCDwRdu11:22 a=uAbxVGIbfxUO_5tXvNgY:22 a=VnNF1IyMAAAA:8 a=Hs2b41jZhdh1vBShbzsA:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.293,Aquarius:18.0.1143,Hydra:6.1.51,FMLib:17.12.100.49 definitions=2026-05-06_02,2026-05-06_01,2025-10-01_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_notspam policy=outbound score=0 priorityscore=1501 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=typeunknown authscore=0 authtc= authcc= route=outbound adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.22.0-2604200000 definitions=main-2605070019 X-CRM114-Version: 20100106-BlameMichelson ( TRE 0.9.0 (BSD) ) MR-646709E3 X-CRM114-CacheID: sfid-20260506_192628_540030_0FD807CB X-CRM114-Status: GOOD ( 30.31 ) X-BeenThere: linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.34 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: "linux-arm-kernel" Errors-To: linux-arm-kernel-bounces+linux-arm-kernel=archiver.kernel.org@lists.infradead.org On Tue, 2026-05-05 at 22:11 -0400, Paul Moore wrote: > On May 5, 2026 9:57:23 PM Mimi Zohar wrote: > > On Tue, 2026-05-05 at 18:55 -0400, Paul Moore wrote: > > > On Tue, May 5, 2026 at 5:05=E2=80=AFPM Mimi Zohar wrote: > > > > On Mon, 2026-05-04 at 16:51 -0400, Paul Moore wrote: > > > > > On Mon, May 4, 2026 at 8:03=E2=80=AFAM Mimi Zohar wrote: > > > > > > On Sun, 2026-05-03 at 12:46 -0400, Paul Moore wrote: > > > > > > > Regardless, assuming you always want IMA to leverage a TPMs w= hen they > > > > > > > exist, your reply suggests that using an initcall based IMA i= nit > > > > > > > scheme, even a late-sync initcall, may not be sufficient beca= use > > > > > > > deferred TPM initialization could happen later, yes? > > > > > >=20 > > > > > > Well yeah. The TPM could be configured as a module, but that s= cenario is=20 > > > > > > not of > > > > > > interest. That's way too late. The case being addressed in th= is patch set is > > > > > > when the TPM driver tries to initialize at device_initcall, ret= urns > > > > > > EPROBE_DEFER, and is retried at deferred_probe_initcall (late_i= nitcall). Since > > > > > > ordering within an initcall is not supported, this patch attemp= ts to initialize > > > > > > IMA at late_initcall and similarly retries, in this case, at= =20 > > > > > > late_initcall_sync. > > > > >=20 > > > > > Okay, so from a TPM initialization perspective you are satisfied = with > > > > > a late-sync IMA initialization, yes? > > > >=20 > > > > No. On some architectures moving IMA initialization from the late_i= nitcall to > > > > late_initcall_sync does not miss any measurement records. However, = as=20 > > > > previously > > > > mentioned, Linux running in a PowerVM LPAR the move would drop ~30 = measurement > > > > records[1]. So no, only if the TPM is not initialized by late_init= call, should > > > > IMA retry at late_initcall_sync. > > >=20 > > > What do you do in the PowerVM LPAR when the TPM is not avaiable at > > > late initcall and you have to defer IMA initialization until > > > late-sync? > >=20 > > Your question is hypothetical ... >=20 > >=20 > > ... as the TPM isn't deferred, so IMA doesn't go into > > TPM-bypass mode. Testing on a PowerVM LPAR demonstrated that it skips = ~30 > > measurement list records. So moving the initcall to late_initcall_sync= would > > cause a regression. >=20 > Let me rephrase to make the question clear - how do you plan to handle a= =20 > system where you lose measurements by waiting until late-sync, but the TP= M=20 > is not available at the late initcall. There have been suggestions to queue the IMA measurements, but that goes ag= ainst the "measure before use" principle. The solution is not to defer IMA initialization for all systems, but to differentiate the boot_aggregate rec= ord (boot_aggregate vs. boot_aggregate_late) based on when the TPM becomes avai= lable relative to IMA's initcall. IMA's job is simply to collect and provide the measurement list. Based on the attestation service policy, the attestation service will decide whether a measurement list containing boot_aggregate_la= te is acceptable. Mimi