[RFC] ipw2100 ipw2200 ps3_gelic rtl8712 --- Are we ready for wext cleanup?

[RFC] ipw2100 ipw2200 ps3_gelic rtl8712 --- Are we ready for wext cleanup?

[Philipp Hortmann]

Hi,

origin of this question was the following patch series from Arnd Bergmann
[PATCH 00/10] Remove obsolete and orphaned wifi drivers
https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231023131953.2876682-1-arnd@kernel.org/

Here the remaining files that use iw_handler_def:
drivers/net/ethernet/toshiba/ps3_gelic_wireless.c:static const struct 
iw_handler_def gelic_wl_wext_handler_def = {
drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct 
iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def;
drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct 
iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def = {
drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2200.c:static const struct 
iw_handler_def ipw_wx_handler_def = {
drivers/staging/rtl8712/os_intfs.c:     pnetdev->wireless_handlers = 
(struct iw_handler_def *)
drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl.h:extern struct iw_handler_def 
r871x_handlers_def;
drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl_linux.c:struct iw_handler_def 
r871x_handlers_def = {


In this Email Greg writes over rtl8192e:
https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/2024100810-payback-suds-8c15@gregkh/
"...
No staging driver should ever get in the way of api changes elsewhere in
the kernel, that's one of the rules of this part of the tree.  So from
my opinion, it's fine to delete it now.  It can always come back in a
new way later on.
..."

So it should not be an issue to remove rtl8712.

Stefan Lippers-Hollmann was one year ago still using the ipw2200.
https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231024014302.0a0b79b0@mir/

Here my opinion why I think we should reconsider this:

I really like to use old hardware. One of my computers is from trash and 
the other one is bought for 50€ three years ago. But non of my hardware 
is from before 2012. Do we as a community really need to support 
hardware from 2003 in kernel 6.13 for WLAN that evolved so rapidly? I do 
not think so.

People around me are complaining that the 2,4GHz WLAN is difficult to 
use because so many devices are using it. Such slow devices consume a 
lot of time to send and receive the data and block therefore other devices.

The longterm kernels will still support this hardware for years.

Please explain to our very high value resources (Maintainers, Developers 
with wext and mac80211 expierience) that you cannot find any other 
solution that is within technical possibility and budget (USB WLAN Stick 
or exchange of WLAN module) and that they need to invest their time for 
maintenance.
Here the example of invested time from Johannes Berg:
https://lore.kernel.org/all/20241007213525.8b2d52b60531.I6a27aaf30bded9a0977f07f47fba2bd31a3b3330@changeid/

I cannot ask the Linux kernel community to support my test hardware just 
because I bought it some time ago. Rather, I have to show that I use it 
for private or business purposes on a regular basis and that I cannot 
easily change.

Using this hardware is security wise not state of the art as WPA3 is not 
supported. We put so much effort into security. Why not here?

Thanks for your response.

Bye Philipp

Re: [RFC] ipw2100 ipw2200 ps3_gelic rtl8712 --- Are we ready for wext cleanup?

[Kalle Valo]

Philipp Hortmann <philipp.g.hortmann@gmail.com> writes:

> origin of this question was the following patch series from Arnd Bergmann
> [PATCH 00/10] Remove obsolete and orphaned wifi drivers
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231023131953.2876682-1-arnd@kernel.org/
>
> Here the remaining files that use iw_handler_def:
> drivers/net/ethernet/toshiba/ps3_gelic_wireless.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def gelic_wl_wext_handler_def = {
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def;
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def = {
> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2200.c:static const struct
> iw_handler_def ipw_wx_handler_def = {
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/os_intfs.c:     pnetdev->wireless_handlers =
> (struct iw_handler_def *)
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl.h:extern struct iw_handler_def
> r871x_handlers_def;
> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl_linux.c:struct iw_handler_def
> r871x_handlers_def = {
>
>
> In this Email Greg writes over rtl8192e:
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/2024100810-payback-suds-8c15@gregkh/
> "...
> No staging driver should ever get in the way of api changes elsewhere in
> the kernel, that's one of the rules of this part of the tree.  So from
> my opinion, it's fine to delete it now.  It can always come back in a
> new way later on.
> ..."
>
> So it should not be an issue to remove rtl8712.
>
> Stefan Lippers-Hollmann was one year ago still using the ipw2200.
> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231024014302.0a0b79b0@mir/
>
> Here my opinion why I think we should reconsider this:
>
> I really like to use old hardware. One of my computers is from trash
> and the other one is bought for 50€ three years ago. But non of my
> hardware is from before 2012. Do we as a community really need to
> support hardware from 2003 in kernel 6.13 for WLAN that evolved so
> rapidly? I do not think so.
>
> People around me are complaining that the 2,4GHz WLAN is difficult to
> use because so many devices are using it. Such slow devices consume a
> lot of time to send and receive the data and block therefore other
> devices.
>
> The longterm kernels will still support this hardware for years.
>
> Please explain to our very high value resources (Maintainers,
> Developers with wext and mac80211 expierience) that you cannot find
> any other solution that is within technical possibility and budget
> (USB WLAN Stick or exchange of WLAN module) and that they need to
> invest their time for maintenance.
> Here the example of invested time from Johannes Berg:
> https://lore.kernel.org/all/20241007213525.8b2d52b60531.I6a27aaf30bded9a0977f07f47fba2bd31a3b3330@changeid/
>
> I cannot ask the Linux kernel community to support my test hardware
> just because I bought it some time ago. Rather, I have to show that I
> use it for private or business purposes on a regular basis and that I
> cannot easily change.
>
> Using this hardware is security wise not state of the art as WPA3 is
> not supported. We put so much effort into security. Why not here?

I didn't quite get what you are saying here, are you proposing that we
should remove ancient drivers faster?

-- 
https://patchwork.kernel.org/project/linux-wireless/list/

https://wireless.wiki.kernel.org/en/developers/documentation/submittingpatches

Re: [RFC] ipw2100 ipw2200 ps3_gelic rtl8712 --- Are we ready for wext cleanup?

[Philipp Hortmann]

On 14.10.24 11:32, Kalle Valo wrote:
> Philipp Hortmann <philipp.g.hortmann@gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> origin of this question was the following patch series from Arnd Bergmann
>> [PATCH 00/10] Remove obsolete and orphaned wifi drivers
>> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231023131953.2876682-1-arnd@kernel.org/
>>
>> Here the remaining files that use iw_handler_def:
>> drivers/net/ethernet/toshiba/ps3_gelic_wireless.c:static const struct
>> iw_handler_def gelic_wl_wext_handler_def = {
>> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
>> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def;
>> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2100.c:static const struct
>> iw_handler_def ipw2100_wx_handler_def = {
>> drivers/net/wireless/intel/ipw2x00/ipw2200.c:static const struct
>> iw_handler_def ipw_wx_handler_def = {
>> drivers/staging/rtl8712/os_intfs.c:     pnetdev->wireless_handlers =
>> (struct iw_handler_def *)
>> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl.h:extern struct iw_handler_def
>> r871x_handlers_def;
>> drivers/staging/rtl8712/rtl871x_ioctl_linux.c:struct iw_handler_def
>> r871x_handlers_def = {
>>
>>
>> In this Email Greg writes over rtl8192e:
>> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/2024100810-payback-suds-8c15@gregkh/
>> "...
>> No staging driver should ever get in the way of api changes elsewhere in
>> the kernel, that's one of the rules of this part of the tree.  So from
>> my opinion, it's fine to delete it now.  It can always come back in a
>> new way later on.
>> ..."
>>
>> So it should not be an issue to remove rtl8712.
>>
>> Stefan Lippers-Hollmann was one year ago still using the ipw2200.
>> https://lore.kernel.org/linux-staging/20231024014302.0a0b79b0@mir/
>>
>> Here my opinion why I think we should reconsider this:
>>
>> I really like to use old hardware. One of my computers is from trash
>> and the other one is bought for 50€ three years ago. But non of my
>> hardware is from before 2012. Do we as a community really need to
>> support hardware from 2003 in kernel 6.13 for WLAN that evolved so
>> rapidly? I do not think so.
>>
>> People around me are complaining that the 2,4GHz WLAN is difficult to
>> use because so many devices are using it. Such slow devices consume a
>> lot of time to send and receive the data and block therefore other
>> devices.
>>
>> The longterm kernels will still support this hardware for years.
>>
>> Please explain to our very high value resources (Maintainers,
>> Developers with wext and mac80211 expierience) that you cannot find
>> any other solution that is within technical possibility and budget
>> (USB WLAN Stick or exchange of WLAN module) and that they need to
>> invest their time for maintenance.
>> Here the example of invested time from Johannes Berg:
>> https://lore.kernel.org/all/20241007213525.8b2d52b60531.I6a27aaf30bded9a0977f07f47fba2bd31a3b3330@changeid/
>>
>> I cannot ask the Linux kernel community to support my test hardware
>> just because I bought it some time ago. Rather, I have to show that I
>> use it for private or business purposes on a regular basis and that I
>> cannot easily change.
>>
>> Using this hardware is security wise not state of the art as WPA3 is
>> not supported. We put so much effort into security. Why not here?
> 
> I didn't quite get what you are saying here, are you proposing that we
> should remove ancient drivers faster?
> 

Hi Kalle,

I propose to delete the last three drivers that are using wireless 
extension:
ps3_gelic_wireless
ipw2x00
rtl8712

Thanks for your response.

Bye Philipp