From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.carlthompson.net (charon.carlthompson.net [45.77.7.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27DB313BAE3 for ; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 17:51:13 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=45.77.7.122 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1723053075; cv=none; b=iLVyy+UzooRIH3N1P8fEmjUJfuyjg7JnWa2TigfOGawvvQkhYaxq9OAmjEPLNR5f3YN38Y/fHhunM/uFm9aKM3l2EfTfIsRMEMbx/Y9Gy2XtX41Ove8ijgWDGAWtqj5NzX1RyWa60CtbgFvDEjT/DD5vqowfl9VAP6pZU1U2c5c= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1723053075; c=relaxed/simple; bh=5vO+q7PlPFnyQLBl9MjvHjTcubX9e3ylkmu+RzaNVLw=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=VfhE2EnfNYHwU1FvP3D8wTv37/3A+j4tXHDL3+Oq2sQlneEynE8L0UnwJIG1BGjijGvvhbH5SiuaqcIo2Mz0lQp0dX2pSZuvp00NnOYacaHqsMTYvmbEwUnHHBbqMY+V6Vw2n1tK2CNvNSva90ISVyzuybO7nmCKE7Rzeqs6RF4= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=reject dis=none) header.from=carlthompson.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=carlthompson.net; arc=none smtp.client-ip=45.77.7.122 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=reject dis=none) header.from=carlthompson.net Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=carlthompson.net Received: from mail.carlthompson.net (mail.home [10.35.20.252]) (Authenticated sender: cet@carlthompson.net) by smtp.carlthompson.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A008F71A1; Wed, 7 Aug 2024 10:43:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2024 10:43:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Carl E. Thompson" To: Kent Overstreet , Eli Schwartz Cc: linux-bcachefs@vger.kernel.org Message-ID: <41409810.56.1723052597872@mail.carlthompson.net> In-Reply-To: References: <36xhap5tafvm4boiy3acu5kxlhkvnp32wp3oknbfbkxbdkeq7r@galecvidi3bn> <7d05b5af-fed0-4ceb-b320-8a1abf11c18b@gentoo.org> Subject: Re: PSA: Avoid Debian Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-bcachefs@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Importance: Normal X-Mailer: Open-Xchange Mailer v7.10.6-Rev53 X-Originating-Client: open-xchange-appsuite Whether or not the concept of Debian is a good idea probably isn't a constructive discussion for this list. The problem here is that what was essentially an _alpha_ piece of software for what at the time was essentially an _alpha_ filesystem was allowed into the _stable_ release of Debian at all. Whoever on the Debian side allowed its inclusion dropped the ball. Carl > On 2024-08-07 10:29 AM PDT Kent Overstreet wrote: > > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2024 at 12:09:53PM GMT, Eli Schwartz wrote: > > On 8/7/24 12:01 PM, Kent Overstreet wrote: > > > This is holding up _bugfix releases_. > > > > > > Anyone would run screaming from a distro that didn't ship updates at > > > all. > > > > > > (What if I said that lots of people *do* run screaming from Debian?) > > Heh. > > Personally, in _general_, I feel quite affectionate towards debian; I've > been running it for 20 years, and there's a lot to like about it and a > lot of good stuff they've done. > > But lately a _lot_ of the bug reports I'm seeing have "I was running an > old broken Debian package" as a root cause or additional complicating > factor. > > And considering that this is due to something we discussed months? a > year? ago, and they're still insisting on broken policies, I am growing > _increasingly_ pissed off about it. > > (Personally, this is pushing me to migrate my infrastructure to NixOS > sooner rather than later...) > > > You have to manually negotiate for those, to avoid the risk of > > accidentally shipping an updated bugfix release that breaks their > > spacebar heating: https://xkcd.com/1172/ > > Which isn't remotely feasible; I have a lot of distros packaging > bcachefs, and I don't have time to devote to interactions like this with > all of them. This is Debian wanting to think they're special, assuming > that they can dominate with their policies - but that's not a winning > long term strategy, that's just going to result in them being left > behind. > > The only honest way of influencing other people, and the only way that > works long term, is with the quality of your ideas. "But this is our > policy and you just have to abide" - nope. Even if people don't react > right away, they see that and take note and start maing other plans. > > > When software cannot be updated by default because it might break > > someone's workflow, the natural result of sometimes needing an update is > > that people who want updates are pitted adversarially against people who > > do not want updates -- you need to plead your case and get permission > > and, well, fight for your right to receive a bugfix. > > I've put a _lot_ of work into making sure bcachefs updates are as > painless as they can be, with e.g. seamless upgrade and downgrade paths, > and ways of dealing with version mismatch between tools/kernel/ondisk > filesystem. > > Because we _have to be able to ship our work_, and in a timely manner. > Our systems get steadily more complicated year by year, decade by > decade, as we build up more processes and tooling around the whole > business of writing and shipping code. Making progress in our work > requires shipping code and iterating, so if we can't and we let the > political process bullshit it's death by a thousand cuts and work slowly > grinds to a halt. > > > Has anyone volunteered to be the political advocate for bcachefs-tools > > bugfix releases in Debian? > > No, and nor would I recommend anyone else for that kind of bullshit, > make-work job. > > The real issue here is just that Debian needs to figure out how to have > some flexibility, recognize when policies aren't working, and develop a > better and more practical minded attitude. > > So they can stop wasting my time with this stupid bullshit and I can get > back to real work.