Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Large block for I/O

Hannes Reinecke
2023-12-22T12:29:22Z

On 12/22/23 09:23, Viacheslav Dubeyko wrote:
>
>
>> On Dec 21, 2023, at 11:33 PM, Bart Van Assche <bvanassche@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>
> <skipped>
>
>>> .
>>
>> Hi Hannes,
>>
>> I'm interested in this topic. But I'm wondering whether the disadvantages of
>> large blocks will be covered? Some NAND storage vendors are less than
>> enthusiast about increasing the logical block size beyond 4 KiB because it
>> increases the size of many writes to the device and hence increases write
>> amplification.
>>
>
> I am also interested in this discussion. Every SSD manufacturer carefully hides
> the details of architecture and FTL’s behavior. I believe that switching on bigger
> logical size (like 8KB, 16KB, etc) could be even better for SSD's internal mapping
> scheme and erase blocks management. I assume that it could require significant
> reworking the firmware and, potentially, ASIC logic. This could be the main pain
> for SSD manufactures. Frankly speaking, I don’t see the direct relation between
> increasing logical block size and increasing write amplification. If you have 16KB
> logical block size on SSD side and file system will continue to use 4KB logical
> block size, then, yes, I can see the problem. But if file system manages the space
> in 16KB logical blocks and carefully issue the I/O requests of proper size, then
> everything should be good. Again, FTL is simply trying to write logical blocks into
> erase block. And we have, for example, 8MB erase block, then mapping and writing
> 16KB logical blocks looks like more beneficial operation compared with 4KB logical
> block.
>
> So, I see more troubles on file systems side to support bigger logical size. For example,
> we discussed the 8KB folio size support recently. Matthew already shared the patch
> for supporting 8KB folio size, but everything should be carefully tested. Also, I experienced
> the issue with read ahead logic. For example, if I format my file system volume with 32KB
> logical block, then read ahead logic returns to me 16KB folios that was slightly surprising
> to me. So, I assume we can find a lot of potential issues on file systems side for bigger
> logical size from the point of view of efficiency of metadata and user data operations.
> Also, high-loaded systems could have fragmented memory that could make the memory
> allocation more tricky operation. I mean here that it could be not easy to allocate one big
> folio. Log-structured file systems can easily aligned write I/O requests for bigger logical
> size. But in-place update file systems can increase write amplification for bigger logical
> size because of necessity to flush bigger portion of data for small modification. However,
> FTL can use delta-encoding and smart logic of compaction several logical blocks into
> one NAND flash page. And, by the way, NAND flash page usually is bigger than 4KB.
>
And that is actually a very valid point; memory fragmentation will
become an issue with larger block sizes.

Theoretically it should be quite easily solved; just switch the memory
subsystem to use the largest block size in the system, and run every
smaller memory allocation via SLUB (or whatever the allocator-of-the-day
currently is :-). Then trivially the system will never be fragmented,
and I/O can always use large folios.

However, that means to do away with alloc_page(), which is still in
widespread use throughout the kernel. I would actually in favour of it,
but it might be that mm people have a different view.

Matthew, worth a new topic?
Handling memory fragmentation on large block I/O systems?

Cheers,

Hannes
--
Dr. Hannes Reinecke Kernel Storage Architect
hare@suse.de +49 911 74053 688
SUSE Software Solutions GmbH, Maxfeldstr. 5, 90409 Nürnberg
HRB 36809 (AG Nürnberg), GF: Ivo Totev, Andrew McDonald,
Werner Knoblich