Re: RAID56 discussion related to RST. (Was "Re: [RFC ONLY 0/8] btrfs: introduce raid-stripe-tree")

Qu Wenruo
2022-07-19T01:19:42Z

On 2022/7/19 05:49, Forza wrote:
>
>
> ---- From: Chris Murphy <lists@colorremedies.com> -- Sent: 2022-07-15 - 22:14 ----
>
>> On Fri, Jul 15, 2022 at 1:55 PM Goffredo Baroncelli <kreijack@libero.it> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 14/07/2022 09.46, Johannes Thumshirn wrote:
>>>> On 14.07.22 09:32, Qu Wenruo wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Again if you're doing sub-stripe size writes, you're asking stupid things and
>>>> then there's no reason to not give the user stupid answers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Qu is right, if we consider only full stripe write the "raid hole" problem
>>> disappear, because if a "full stripe" is not fully written it is not
>>> referenced either.
>>>
>>>
>>> Personally I think that the ZFS variable stripe size, may be interesting
>>> to evaluate. Moreover, because the BTRFS disk format is quite flexible,
>>> we can store different BG with different number of disks.
>
> We can create new types of BGs too. For example parity BGs.
>
>>> Let me to make an
>>> example: if we have 10 disks, we could allocate:
>>> 1 BG RAID1
>>> 1 BG RAID5, spread over 4 disks only
>>> 1 BG RAID5, spread over 8 disks only
>>> 1 BG RAID5, spread over 10 disks
>>>
>>> So if we have short writes, we could put the extents in the RAID1 BG; for longer
>>> writes we could use a RAID5 BG with 4 or 8 or 10 disks depending by length
>>> of the data.
>>>
>>> Yes this would require a sort of garbage collector to move the data to the biggest
>>> raid5 BG, but this would avoid (or reduce) the fragmentation which affect the
>>> variable stripe size.
>>>
>>> Doing so we don't need any disk format change and it would be backward compatible.
>
> Do we need to implement RAID56 in the traditional sense? As the user/sysadmin I care about redundancy and performance and cost. The option to create redundancy for any 'n drives is appealing from a cost perspective, otherwise I'd use RAID1/10.

Have you heard any recent problems related to dm-raid56?

If your answer is no, then I guess we already have an answer to your
question.

>
> Since the current RAID56 mode have several important drawbacks

Let me to be clear:

If you can ensure you didn't hit power loss, or after a power loss do a
scrub immediately before any new write, then current RAID56 is fine, at
least not obviously worse than dm-raid56.

(There are still common problems shared between both btrfs raid56 and
dm-raid56, like destructive-RMW)

> - and that it's officially not recommended for production use - it is a good idea to reconstruct new btrfs 'redundant-n' profiles that doesn't have the inherent issues of traditional RAID.

I'd say the complexity is hugely underestimated.

> For example a non-striped redundant-n profile as well as a striped redundant-n profile.

Non-striped redundant-n profile is already so complex that I can't
figure out a working idea right now.

But if there is such way, I'm pretty happy to consider.

>
>>
>> My 2 cents...
>>
>> Regarding the current raid56 support, in order of preference:
>>
>> a. Fix the current bugs, without changing format. Zygo has an extensive list.
>
> I agree that relatively simple fixes should be made. But it seems we will need quite a large rewrite to solve all issues? Is there a minium viable option here?

Nope. Just see my write-intent code, already have prototype (just needs
new scrub based recovery code at mount time) working.

And based on my write-intent code, I don't think it's that hard to
implement a full journal.

Thanks,
Qu

>
>> b. Mostly fix the write hole, also without changing the format, by
>> only doing COW with full stripe writes. Yes you could somehow get
>> corrupt parity still and not know it until degraded operation produces
>> a bad reconstruction of data - but checksum will still catch that.
>> This kind of "unreplicated corruption" is not quite the same thing as
>> the write hole, because it isn't pernicious like the write hole.
>
> What is the difference to a)? Is write hole the worst issue? Judging from the #brtfs channel discussions there seems to be other quite severe issues, for example real data corruption risks in degraded mode.
>
>> c. A new de-clustered parity raid56 implementation that is not
>> backwards compatible.
>
> Yes. We have a good opportunity to work out something much better than current implementations. We could have redundant-n profiles that also works with tired storage like ssd/nvme similar to the metadata on ssd idea.
>
> Variable stripe width has been brought up before, but received cool responses. Why is that? IMO it could improve random 4k ios by doing equivalent to RAID1 instead of RMW, while also closing the write hole. Perhaps there is a middle ground to be found?
>
>
>>
>> Ergo, I think it's best to not break the format twice. Even if a new
>> raid implementation is years off.
>
> I very agree here. Btrfs already suffers in public opinion from the lack of a stable and safe-for-data RAID56, and requiring several non-compatible chances isn't going to help.
>
> I also think it's important that the 'temporary' changes actually leads to a stable filesystem. Because what is the point otherwise?
>
> Thanks
> Forza
>
>>
>> Metadata centric workloads suck on parity raid anyway. If Btrfs always
>> does full stripe COW won't matter even if the performance is worse
>> because no one should use parity raid for this workload anyway.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Chris Murphy
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