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[96.60.249.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-73971700944sm36002407b3.28.2025.09.22.11.24.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Sep 2025 11:24:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2025 14:24:45 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: Can the output of FIEMAP on BTRFS be used to check if a file and its reflink copy might have diverged? To: Qu Wenruo , linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org References: <62a97fb7-75e3-4832-b97c-90763b287a5c@gmx.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <62a97fb7-75e3-4832-b97c-90763b287a5c@gmx.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------RKb4RqVOMWHmJZGmaPNUyFA0" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------RKb4RqVOMWHmJZGmaPNUyFA0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------IU0ZKVykLT76rD0V09lI7G4F"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: Qu Wenruo , linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: Can the output of FIEMAP on BTRFS be used to check if a file and its reflink copy might have diverged? References: <62a97fb7-75e3-4832-b97c-90763b287a5c@gmx.com> In-Reply-To: <62a97fb7-75e3-4832-b97c-90763b287a5c@gmx.com> --------------IU0ZKVykLT76rD0V09lI7G4F Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tB25og42jT00ZLWuuZDVmAa8" --------------tB25og42jT00ZLWuuZDVmAa8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 9/21/25 20:50, Qu Wenruo wrote: >=20 >=20 > =E5=9C=A8 2025/9/22 09:37, Demi Marie Obenour =E5=86=99=E9=81=93: >> Wyng Backup (https://codeberg.org/tasket/wyng-backup) relies on FIEMAP= >> to determine which parts of a file have not changed since it was last >> backed up. Specifically, the output of filefrag -v is passed to sort = and >> then to uniq, and differences between the outputs for the file and >> the previous version (a reflink copy) determine what gets backed up. >> >> Is this safe under BTRFS, >=20 > No. There are several factors affecting this, some are minor some are n= ot: >=20 > - Inlined extents > The returned bytenr is unreliable in that case. > Although the fiemap flags should indicate that, with 'inline' flag > set. >=20 > - Balance > Btrfs can balance the data extents, which will result the change of > the fiemap. >=20 > E.g. > ## Before balance > # md5sum /mnt/btrfs/foobar > 27c9068d1b51da575a53ad34c57ca5cc /mnt/btrfs/foobar > # filefrag -v /mnt/btrfs/foobar > Filesystem type is: 9123683e > File size of /mnt/btrfs/foobar is 65536 (8 blocks of 8192 bytes) > ext: logical_offset: physical_offset: length: expected= :=20 > flags: > 0: 0.. 7: 1664.. 1671: 8:=20 > last,eof > /mnt/btrfs/foobar: 1 extent found >=20 > ## Do data balance > # btrfs balance start -d /mnt/btrfs/ > Done, had to relocate 1 out of 3 chunks >=20 > ## After data balannce > # filefrag -v /mnt/btrfs/foobar > Filesystem type is: 9123683e > File size of /mnt/btrfs/foobar is 65536 (8 blocks of 8192 bytes) > ext: logical_offset: physical_offset: length:=20 > expected: flags: > 0: 0.. 7: 36480.. 36487: 8:=20 > last,eof > /mnt/btrfs/foobar: 1 extent found >=20 >=20 > - NODATACOW cases. > In that case new data is written into the same location, without any= > extra new data extents. This completely breaks the assumption. >=20 > - Dirty data that is not yet written into the disk > In that case fiemap won't show those data but only the ones that are= > on the disk. >=20 >> or can it result in data loss due to data >> not being backed up that should be? In other words, can it result >> in data being considered unchanged when it really is? >=20 > Dirty data and NODATACOW will result data being considered unchanged=20 > using fiemap only. >=20 > And balance will make the unchanged data to be considered changed. >=20 > So overall, fiemap based solution on btrfs is unreliable. Can one implement this reliably with TREE_SEARCH_V2 or by parsing the output of `btrfs send`? Using `btrfs receive` to apply deltas might work, but the backups must be encrypted with a key the destination doesn't have, and that means the backups must be opaque to the remote. Therefore, I think periodic full backups with incremental backups on top of them (each containing the hash of the last) is the best that could be done. This means that old backups cannot be garbage-collected without taking a full backup first. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------tB25og42jT00ZLWuuZDVmAa8 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49y B+l2nipdaq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYf bWpr/si88QKgyGSVZ7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/ UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnTDlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7M MPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPxwcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9H zx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvU T1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl5FMWo8TCniHynNXs BtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2Bkg1b//r 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