From: Chao Gao <chao.gao@intel.com>
To: Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@intel.com>
Cc: Vishal Annapurve <vannapurve@google.com>,
"Reshetova, Elena" <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
"linux-coco@lists.linux.dev" <linux-coco@lists.linux.dev>,
"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"x86@kernel.org" <x86@kernel.org>,
"Chatre, Reinette" <reinette.chatre@intel.com>,
"Weiny, Ira" <ira.weiny@intel.com>,
"Huang, Kai" <kai.huang@intel.com>,
"Williams, Dan J" <dan.j.williams@intel.com>,
"yilun.xu@linux.intel.com" <yilun.xu@linux.intel.com>,
"sagis@google.com" <sagis@google.com>,
"paulmck@kernel.org" <paulmck@kernel.org>,
"nik.borisov@suse.com" <nik.borisov@suse.com>,
Borislav Petkov <bp@alien8.de>,
Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
"Kirill A. Shutemov" <kas@kernel.org>,
Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
"Edgecombe, Rick P" <rick.p.edgecombe@intel.com>,
Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2025 15:43:11 +0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <aPsuD2fbYwCccgNi@intel.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <aad8ae43-a7bd-42b2-9452-2bdee82bf0d8@intel.com>
>One thing I don't think I've heard anyone be worried about is how timely
>the update process is. So how about this: Updates wait for any existing
>builds to complete. But, new builds wait for updates. That can be done
>with a single rwsem:
>
>struct rw_semaphore update_rwsem;
>
>tdx_td_init()
>{
> ...
>+ down_read_interruptible(&update_rwsem);
> kvm_tdx->state = TD_STATE_INITIALIZED;
>
>tdx_td_finalize()
>{
> ...
>+ up_read(&update_rwsem);
> kvm_tdx->state = TD_STATE_RUNNABLE;
>
>A module update does:
>
> down_write_interruptible(&update_rwsem);
> do_actual_update();
> up_write(&update_rwsem);
>
>There would be no corruption issues, no erroring out of the build
>process, and no punting to userspace to ensure forward progress.
>
>The big downside is that both the build process and update process can
>appear to hang for a long time. It'll also be a bit annoying to ensure
>that there are up_read(&update_rwsem)'s if the kvm_tdx object gets torn
>down during a build.
>
>But the massive upside is that there's no new ABI and all the
>consistency and forward progress guarantees are in the kernel. If we
>want new ABIs around it that give O_NONBLOCK semantics to build or
>update, that can be added on after the fact.
>
>Plus, if userspace *WANTS* to coordinate the whole shebang, they're free
>to. They'd never see long hangs because they would be coordinating.
>
>Thoughts?
Hi Dave,
Thanks for this summary and suggestion.
Beyond "the kvm_tdx object gets torn down during a build," I see two potential
issues:
1. TD Build and TDX migration aren't purely kernel processes -- they span multiple
KVM ioctls. Holding a read-write lock throughout the entire process would
require exiting to userspace while the lock is held. I think this is
irregular, but I'm not sure if it's acceptable for read-write semaphores.
2. The kernel may need to hold this read-write lock for operations not yet
defined in the future. The TDX Module Base spec [*] notes on page 55:
: Future TDX Module versions may have different or additional update-sensitive
: cases. By design, such cases apply to a small portion of the overall TD
: lifecycle.
[*]: https://cdrdv2.intel.com/v1/dl/getContent/733575
Given these concerns, I'm not sure whether implementing a read-write lock in
the kernel is the right approach.
Since Google prefers to "avoid updates during update-sensitive times," we can
implement that approach for now. If other Linux users find this insufficient
and prefer failing TD build/migration operations with strong justification, we
can enable that functionality in the future.
What do you think?
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2025-10-24 7:43 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 78+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2025-10-01 2:52 [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 01/21] x86/virt/tdx: Print SEAMCALL leaf numbers in decimal Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 02/21] x86/virt/tdx: Use %# prefix for hex values in SEAMCALL error messages Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 03/21] x86/virt/tdx: Move low level SEAMCALL helpers out of <asm/tdx.h> Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 04/21] x86/virt/tdx: Prepare to support P-SEAMLDR SEAMCALLs Chao Gao
2025-11-21 7:53 ` Binbin Wu
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 05/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Introduce a wrapper for " Chao Gao
2025-11-21 8:41 ` Binbin Wu
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 06/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Retrieve P-SEAMLDR information Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 07/21] coco/tdx-host: Expose P-SEAMLDR information via sysfs Chao Gao
2025-10-30 21:54 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-30 23:05 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-31 14:31 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 08/21] coco/tdx-host: Implement FW_UPLOAD sysfs ABI for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 09/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Block TDX Module updates if any CPU is offline Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 10/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Verify availability of slots for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 11/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Allocate and populate a module update request Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 12/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Introduce skeleton for TDX Module updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 13/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Abort updates if errors occurred midway Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 14/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Shut down the current TDX module Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:52 ` [PATCH v2 15/21] x86/virt/tdx: Reset software states after TDX module shutdown Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 16/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Handle TDX Module update failures Chao Gao
2025-10-28 2:53 ` Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 17/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Install a new TDX Module Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 18/21] x86/virt/seamldr: Do TDX per-CPU initialization after updates Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 19/21] x86/virt/tdx: Establish contexts for the new TDX Module Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 20/21] x86/virt/tdx: Update tdx_sysinfo and check features post-update Chao Gao
2025-10-01 2:53 ` [PATCH v2 21/21] x86/virt/tdx: Enable TDX Module runtime updates Chao Gao
2025-10-14 15:32 ` [PATCH v2 00/21] Runtime TDX Module update support Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-15 8:54 ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-15 14:19 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-16 6:48 ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-15 15:02 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-16 6:46 ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-16 17:47 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-17 10:08 ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-18 0:01 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-21 13:42 ` Reshetova, Elena
2025-10-22 7:14 ` Chao Gao
2025-10-22 15:42 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-23 20:31 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-23 21:10 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-23 22:00 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-24 7:43 ` Chao Gao [this message]
2025-10-24 18:02 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 19:40 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-24 20:00 ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-24 20:14 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 21:09 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-24 20:13 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-24 21:12 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-24 21:19 ` Dave Hansen
2025-10-25 0:54 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-25 1:42 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-25 11:55 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-25 12:01 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-26 21:30 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-26 22:01 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-27 18:53 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28 0:42 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-28 2:13 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28 17:00 ` Erdem Aktas
2025-10-29 0:56 ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-29 2:17 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-29 13:48 ` Sean Christopherson
2025-10-30 17:01 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-31 2:53 ` Chao Gao
2025-11-19 22:44 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-11-20 2:47 ` Chao Gao
2025-11-20 23:38 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-28 23:48 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-10-28 20:29 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-28 20:32 ` dan.j.williams
2025-10-31 16:55 ` Sagi Shahar
2025-10-31 17:57 ` Vishal Annapurve
2025-11-01 2:18 ` Chao Gao
2025-11-01 2:05 ` Chao Gao
2025-11-12 14:09 ` Chao Gao
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