From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com [170.10.133.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E349F322A for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 14:02:45 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.133.124 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1750082567; cv=none; b=tFtmxYp2Fhjv4VoQGV0rfwMcCv6892dBA8z4L+cMxQPjUWjDQvQ1srrHc6CY4oeFMeO2qvcvEGtplgo5nSHuKvZ/1SZP6YYhtyLTHED2ftn9g7f1wA2JWhGSurCAV7aopOorIhYP5bNomoMBZPhALiIrRjU2cm4Ky2GXpZMmlkI= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1750082567; c=relaxed/simple; bh=d0ARDgvB9SsiJbkPZbgooQRX1EUc9fd8sBsLDXLnLXk=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=WVnh1Xj8c8qKHgKBE6zfwX7mmAK26V6r6slxSKExEEdLDcZR029r82CXgnvwR7FhtyoG0vv8wsfd8SYMcrGQQ4cpsprqUXynfQLGUoIp66t5oHeo+JUqW6XWHRceJzYQOmXf61YXo/ahKoBigpVqOVLkCx2X0M5HFIWJtPzWUdE= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=redhat.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b=GDQPjJa4; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.133.124 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="GDQPjJa4" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1750082564; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=d0ARDgvB9SsiJbkPZbgooQRX1EUc9fd8sBsLDXLnLXk=; b=GDQPjJa4oxjfDf9MW+tCwyhBcw+1rju8SzGY+ZGOqMenDkzUAWboLVQi47r8tqItpTc3K4 STpsw+8dkiVkr4aADRm27TVStWImsfvbrSFOluPNosVzMdRyPy3Y7e4ZsaMXB3UQs9b5Ii /WIQZStZBAC3QsayDpYDAw+uxTlfFVM= Received: from mail-qv1-f72.google.com (mail-qv1-f72.google.com [209.85.219.72]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.3, cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id us-mta-558-7RpjBdVZPXmu5o1AVSvAQg-1; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 10:02:41 -0400 X-MC-Unique: 7RpjBdVZPXmu5o1AVSvAQg-1 X-Mimecast-MFC-AGG-ID: 7RpjBdVZPXmu5o1AVSvAQg_1750082561 Received: by mail-qv1-f72.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fb1f84a448so43257846d6.0 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1750082561; x=1750687361; h=mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding:organization :references:in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=d0ARDgvB9SsiJbkPZbgooQRX1EUc9fd8sBsLDXLnLXk=; b=nRsxIeOjyCgOAt763o9Dds008Va8jMA+r73IBBpPSApnypaIWDkGG/TDYUY+qV2JJR t7UdCTUsr4A7RZAUUdPmbEhur3WOakZQrg5fA3m9Owhid855PR5bJLvqjLIXajP752bS gNLpd2hQPhe/SsRBjIPyHbps9ygQNdMJhaaDNWSdW8bmAKn2tBaajqYV7n4yNWah1xrq ti2MXMafzsquMinkoiFEanZAryZo3pFG1wFDq2AXo2RNgDN9w+U3tTsLKxdcIVxtKKq0 grNf7yfa2eVDpbyEMN1RKHSSrc12Yc3DE2fOUI5uXBooXLMb8P1PcxbjBN7buncyRP2Q 1avQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUOzyYAZjmYdj5fG9veUOp9Ha2SwQl71LLhirsbCf4uyx0JgqDhzv91j0cEkY4hej5oqHwmTdKgvOrlkR0=@vger.kernel.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz1atJ7b/DPrYheXpISw/50Jl9VKt7m4YCcBoqpUTJTdrguPpl8 gFDI6Z6p3vyy79NBHhiGnqnNf3MZz/J574Hqraarf+QFJUKke2VAW136M7nZ8gtqljDagat5u18 ZURtu3yJEO/dWp/kdT6Z8gsw9dE4wMnHcty7IcbjKsdudC2ExpFkuryzyUEuFY9wUvw== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncv9ZTXdLXiTdzyoj3cV0jPqZozgWQnVfti7BBv7I60fxTa/hdpxTDfbwpalNiQ NVkF+hnKAJVlt0Ijgy6+RgcYA7AEu/Idh9gTYyNy0FI1b3QgLzlF8C79jQPW8ZxWHYXJ7Fq7uWW o9EKTcObI1xNzoHm/pEMBnMu+RlTl3G/shB5t4mA2t0ICOXiGzSbYg8yBEzj6cDC7mTzz2pZxGD cl+h68ZY1Gqj4LcW3sSVVVB45aDcBUfqjA6Ytt1E714o8wwj+A6OMm5fhlL6viI2PeKOugNDJR6 ecKnVU751xyBSjrx X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:5707:b0:6fa:c46c:6fa6 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fb47725e9emr140484886d6.12.1750082560763; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHBcR/KFEr6tqTnCHltQ+VrJiT6moThRhF0UozL35I/ow0X/uSWOEQ9XgxjQtT6GjShaQTWUA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:5707:b0:6fa:c46c:6fa6 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6fb47725e9emr140484276d6.12.1750082560204; Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from m8.users.ipa.redhat.com ([2603:7000:9400:fe80::baf]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 6a1803df08f44-6fb525553c3sm16042316d6.104.2025.06.16.07.02.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 16 Jun 2025 07:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <7ad6d5f61d6cd602241966476252599800c6a304.camel@redhat.com> Subject: Re: Module signing and post-quantum crypto public key algorithms From: Simo Sorce To: James Bottomley , Ignat Korchagin , David Howells Cc: Herbert Xu , Stephan Mueller , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, Paul Moore , Lukas Wunner , Clemens Lang , David Bohannon , Roberto Sassu , keyrings@vger.kernel.org, linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org, linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2025 10:02:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: <3081793dc1d846dccef07984520fc544f709ca84.camel@HansenPartnership.com> References: <501216.1749826470@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <3081793dc1d846dccef07984520fc544f709ca84.camel@HansenPartnership.com> Organization: Red Hat Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.56.1 (3.56.1-1.fc42) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2025-06-13 at 13:50 -0400, James Bottomley wrote: > I agree it's coming, but there's currently no date for post quantum > requirement in FIPS, which is the main driver for this. The driver is the CNSA 2.0 document which has precise deadlines, not FIPS. That said ML-KEM and ML-DSA can already be validated, so FIPS is also covered. > Current estimates say Shor's algorithm in "reasonable[1]" time requires > around a million qubits to break RSA2048, so we're still several orders > of magnitude off that. Note that you are citing sources that identify needed physical qbits for error correction, but what IBM publishes is a roadmap for *error corrected* logical qbits. If they can pull that off that computer will already be way too uncomfortably close (you need 2n+3 error corrected logical qbits to break RSA). > Grover's only requires just over 2,000 (which > is why NIST is worried about that first). Grover can at most half the search space, so it is not really a concern, even with the smallest key sizes the search space is still 2^64 ... so it makes little sense to spend a lot of engineering time to find all places where doubling key size break things and then do a micro-migration to that. It is better to focus the scarce resources on the long term. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > James >=20 > [1] you can change this by a couple of orders of magnitude depending on > how long you're willing to wait --=20 Simo Sorce Distinguished Engineer RHEL Crypto Team Red Hat, Inc