From: David Brown <davidb-sgV2jX0FEOL9JmXXK+q4OQ@public.gmane.org>
To: Nicolas Pitre <nico-vtqb6HGKxmzR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>
Cc: Stephen Warren <swarren-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>,
"devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org"
<devicetree-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>,
"ksummit-2013-discuss-cunTk1MwBs98uUxBSJOaYoYkZiVZrdSR2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org"
<ksummit-2013-discuss-cunTk1MwBs98uUxBSJOaYoYkZiVZrdSR2LY78lusg7I@public.gmane.org>,
"linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org"
<linux-arm-kernel-IAPFreCvJWM7uuMidbF8XUB+6BGkLq7r@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better?
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 23:47:23 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20131022064723.GA15861@codeaurora.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310201911190.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 09:00:08PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
>The hardware support in the kernel, on the other hand, can be improved
>incrementally with time. It doesn't matter if it is not optimal at
>first. It can be revisited, optimized, reviewed, and sometimes even
>redesigned. And only when it reaches maturity would be the time to use
>the experience from the kernel development and make some firmware out of
>it. But what would be the point then?
One other point that is kind of overlooked, but I think is important,
is that firmware will tend to be closed source. The advantages we get
to having drivers shared in the kernel would be gone, and we would end
up with multiple implementations of essentially the same driver,
especially with reference hardware blocks that get used in different
platforms.
David
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-10-22 6:47 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 171+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-10-20 21:26 ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better? Stephen Warren
2013-10-20 23:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131020231134.GR25034-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-20 23:44 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <52646AF9.3050309-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-20 23:51 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131020235104.GT25034-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 0:13 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-21 20:05 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <52658918.1060708-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 9:45 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 8:32 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` <20131021083242.GB30088-bIcnvbaLZ9MEGnE8C9+IrQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 8:48 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131021084854.GV25034-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 9:27 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` < CAF6AEGtt_2sStiZCNBp9btxevWghSwLZZBdN6ir8eUpX1FXrCQ@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` < 20131024072811.GS30088@pengutronix.de>
[not found] ` < CAF6AEGuEho9Ms7ifTE-EmBoQ-=_AXgvGcJxi5qEC0vsZ+H9C+A@mail.gmail.com>
[not found] ` <20131021092730.GF30088-bIcnvbaLZ9MEGnE8C9+IrQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 9:57 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131021095757.GY25034-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 10:24 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131021102448.GD21518-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 10:30 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131021103014.GZ25034-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 10:41 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 9:19 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Mark Brown
2013-10-21 20:09 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-21 23:18 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 1:14 ` Rob Clark
[not found] ` <CAF6AEGtt_2sStiZCNBp9btxevWghSwLZZBdN6ir8eUpX1FXrCQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 7:28 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` <20131024072811.GS30088-bIcnvbaLZ9MEGnE8C9+IrQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 9:00 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024090054.GA11296-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 9:21 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-24 21:21 ` Rob Clark
[not found] ` <CAF6AEGuEho9Ms7ifTE-EmBoQ-=_AXgvGcJxi5qEC0vsZ+H9C+A-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-25 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 12:45 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131118124518.GA16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 15:37 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131118153750.GM26046-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 16:11 ` Russell King - ARM Linux
[not found] ` <20131118161151.GG16735-l+eeeJia6m9vn6HldHNs0ANdhmdF6hFW@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 16:18 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 18:43 ` Mark Brown
2013-11-19 13:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-21 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 10:57 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 10:00 ` Laurent Pinchart
2013-10-21 11:18 ` Sebastian Hesselbarth
[not found] ` <52644A9E.3060007-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-20 22:08 ` Mark Brown
[not found] ` <20131020220839.GT2443-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-20 22:21 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <5264576F.6050307-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 1:00 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310201911190.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 9:15 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-21 14:57 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <20131021091555.GB21518-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 17:07 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-21 20:24 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-22 9:24 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131022092410.GB15640-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 17:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 19:06 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 17:22 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-21 20:29 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <52658EBC.8020800-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 20:40 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310211632460.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 9:39 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131022093923.GC15640-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 15:04 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 17:13 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20131022171346.GE4061-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 17:49 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-23 8:06 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 9:49 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131023094903.GD11954-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 17:16 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:25 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 18:05 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:57 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 20:12 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 17:55 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310231355160.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 18:13 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:29 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20131023172955.GA17145-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 17:45 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:46 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382553982.31058.10.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 18:51 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 19:12 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 9:52 ` Grant Likely
[not found] ` <20131024095232.27BBCC4039D-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 11:33 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382614439.6040.16.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 11:47 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <1382615278.8522.72.camel-Fexsq3y4057IgHVZqg5X0TlWvGAXklZc@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 12:13 ` Maxime Bizon
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 12:22 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <3726fd81259f84ef308ba9011ae35174.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 13:05 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382619952.6040.57.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 13:14 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <addbb1933c62983e0114eeda7ce51342.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 13:46 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382622360.6040.79.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 19:52 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-24 20:11 ` Matt Sealey
[not found] ` <1382616801.6040.26.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-25 9:00 ` Stephen Warren
2013-10-24 12:23 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024122346.GD11296-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 12:29 ` David Woodhouse
2013-10-24 13:00 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382619655.6040.52.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 13:10 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <516bfc7f9366ff3ef9187c36dd160888.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 13:30 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382621431.6040.66.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:05 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <af289ef3cc80be8de26274ba1f598d54.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:19 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024141955.GB25061-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:30 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <465e75de15f7d79c3b57a3b88024e739.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:38 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 16:39 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310241143240.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 16:45 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <93d9a5ce228d03c4a183b06b00bd0442.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 17:08 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 18:15 ` jonsmirl-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w
2013-10-24 14:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 14:47 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 15:37 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 14:33 ` Maxime Bizon
[not found] ` <1382625219.6040.96.camel-MdnFuL0m/hCw+z8RR+d9WEZ2mhrpEnA6@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:57 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 16:27 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-24 14:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 14:22 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <99db70b50b3ddcf20d940d5855c657e0.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:23 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024142347.GD25061-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:38 ` David Woodhouse
[not found] ` <818aaae744e58e37c6641d41912d0ba2.squirrel-fWAbwA/6YHlc2C7mugBRk2EX/6BAtgUQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 14:58 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 19:58 ` Matt Porter
[not found] ` <20131024141241.GA25061-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 23:54 ` Grant Likely
2013-10-25 8:52 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <526A3165.4020601-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-25 9:16 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 17:47 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 17:58 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-23 18:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20131023180240.GA32563-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 18:23 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 8:34 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024083411.GH9403-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 15:00 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 19:46 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 18:01 ` Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <20131023180108.GA23728-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 18:25 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20131023182502.GC32563-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 18:30 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-23 18:54 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20131023185435.GD32563-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 8:06 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` <20131024080624.GV30088-bIcnvbaLZ9MEGnE8C9+IrQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 8:17 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131024081733.GG9403-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 8:52 ` Sascha Hauer
2013-10-23 23:29 ` Ben Hutchings
[not found] ` <1382570963.6315.48.camel-nDn/Rdv9kqW9Jme8/bJn5UCKIB8iOfG2tUK59QYPAWc@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 7:32 ` Richard Cochran
2013-10-24 9:35 ` Ben Hutchings
2013-10-24 12:02 ` Andre Heider
2013-10-24 8:01 ` Sascha Hauer
[not found] ` <20131024080126.GU30088-bIcnvbaLZ9MEGnE8C9+IrQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-24 8:11 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 17:42 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310221333300.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 18:21 ` Peter Maydell
[not found] ` <CAFEAcA8QQyDyvssamsb8s8ydfHGT8V0FQE-wGYt_kRbRMv9GSQ-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 18:36 ` Nicolas Pitre
2013-10-22 19:16 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 20:12 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:41 ` Nicolas Pitre
[not found] ` <alpine.LFD.2.03.1310221624390.1951-hIgblCxmbi8OMTOF05IoTw@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 21:39 ` Jason Gunthorpe
2013-10-23 8:50 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-23 9:02 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 20:42 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-23 10:04 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131023100456.GE11954-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 11:48 ` Peter Maydell
2013-10-23 16:29 ` Matt Porter
2013-10-22 6:47 ` David Brown [this message]
2013-10-21 8:54 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131021085420.GA21518-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 20:19 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <52658C49.80400-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-21 22:51 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <5265AFED.1040503-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 10:27 ` James Hogan
[not found] ` <52665314.2040904-1AXoQHu6uovQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 16:31 ` Jonathan Cameron
[not found] ` <232aa6e4-19fe-4460-8101-8bf1d639ff3c-2ueSQiBKiTY7tOexoI0I+QC/G2K4zDHf@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 16:49 ` Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <20131022164922.GA29852-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-22 20:35 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 21:10 ` Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <20131022211000.GA30394-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 7:57 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131023075758.GA7404-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 16:01 ` Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <20131023160131.GA20675-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 21:07 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-24 15:18 ` Guenter Roeck
[not found] ` <20131024151853.GB25355-0h96xk9xTtrk1uMJSBkQmQ@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-01 10:36 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131101103614.GM27864-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-01 13:30 ` Guenter Roeck
2013-10-22 20:48 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 10:25 ` Thierry Reding
2013-10-22 21:44 ` Matt Sealey
[not found] ` <CAHCPf3uKp-aEavjrEbHGBc_Ga-JgJoEDF+io4kOuvtL6H05eRA-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 11:41 ` Peter Maydell
[not found] ` <CAFEAcA8rPn7x8W4T3qE5OUeSVQd-GB9+EQPnxMsmyNQ0HKoMPw-JsoAwUIsXosN+BqQ9rBEUg@public.gmane.org>
2013-10-23 23:02 ` [Ksummit-2013-discuss] " Rob Herring
2013-11-18 12:26 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131118122644.GA26046@ulmo. nvidia.com>
[not found] ` <20131118122644.GA26046-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 13:40 ` Grant Likely
[not found] ` <20131118134022.26EE7C409EC-WNowdnHR2B42iJbIjFUEsiwD8/FfD2ys@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 13:57 ` Mark Brown
[not found] ` <20131118135727.GD14306-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 15:29 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131118152920.GL26046-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 15:50 ` Mark Brown
[not found] ` <20131118155022.GB28334-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 16:06 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131118160626.GN26046-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-18 17:16 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <528A4B5D.8050809-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 9:35 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131119093504.GF31504-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 17:27 ` Stephen Warren
[not found] ` <528B9F8C.5080202-3lzwWm7+Weoh9ZMKESR00Q@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-20 13:29 ` Thierry Reding
2013-11-18 18:35 ` Mark Brown
[not found] ` <20131118183502.GP2674-GFdadSzt00ze9xe1eoZjHA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 9:11 ` Thierry Reding
[not found] ` <20131119091140.GE31504-AwZRO8vwLAwmlAP/+Wk3EA@public.gmane.org>
2013-11-19 10:16 ` Mark Brown
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