Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better?

[Matt Porter <matt.porter-QSEj5FYQhm4dnm+yROfE0A@public.gmane.org>]

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 12:04:57PM +0200, Thierry Reding wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 04:42:38PM -0400, Matt Porter wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 10:12:29PM +0200, Thierry Reding wrote:
> > > On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 01:42:48PM -0400, Nicolas Pitre wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 22 Oct 2013, Matt Porter wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > DT has many benefits. It would be great to leverage them as long as it
> > > > > doesn't interfere with the rate of change and willingness to evolve code
> > > > > that's always been the strength of the kernel process. That strength is
> > > > > too valuable to trade away for the "DT as ABI" vision.
> > > > 
> > > > Amen.  This is the best statement I've read about DT so far.
> > > > 
> > > > Having "stable" DT bindings is just a dream.  Experience so far is 
> > > > showing that this is neither practical nor realistic.
> > > > 
> > > > The unstructured free-for-all approach isn't good either.  Some 
> > > > compromise between the two extremes needs to be found.
> > > 
> > > I agree. I think we need an easy way to mark bindings as unstable. One
> > > possible solution that I can think of would be to use some kind of
> > > special marker within the compatible value defined by a binding that
> > > would be used to qualify it as unstable. Perhaps something as simple as
> > > a preceding exclamation mark (!) would do.
> > > 
> > > 	gpio {
> > > 		compatible = "!foo-gpio";
> > > 	};
> > > 
> > > The DT core code could look for that when matching device nodes to the
> > > list of compatible values supported by a driver and output a big warning
> > > message to make users aware of the fact that the binding may change. The
> > > driver could use the same marker in the OF device ID table to make it
> > > clear that it implements an experimental binding. Whenever a binding is
> > > deemed stable we can simply remove the marker from both the driver and
> > > the binding, as well as DTS files.
> > 
> > From a technical POV this seems nice.
> > 
> > What does stable mean at this point? DTBs using the stable binding are
> > forever guaranteed compatibility with newer kernels? We really need to
> > define *exactly* what this implies for future support.
> 
> I think there's some broad agreement about what stable bindings entail.
> Essentially it means at no point in the future a new kernel is allowed
> to stop working with an old binding.
> 
> It also entails that bindings can change, but only in ways that don't
> break backwards-compatibility.

Agreed. This will have to be documented in the kernel going forward. Not
buried in 4 different threads where everybody has a different opinion.

> > More than likely, most bindings will choose to stay experimental/testing
> > indefinitely if stable means a lifetime of ugly backward compatibility
> > hacks.
> 
> Possibly, yes. I'd like to think that having an explicit marker for
> unstable bindings would be incentive enough to keep efforts ongoing to
> make it stable. Think of it as the DT equivalent of the staging tree.
> Nobody wants code to stay in staging forever because, well, it's just
> ugly. If we furthermore output a warning at runtime whenever the DT core
> encounters a compatible string marked as experimental, then people will
> likely be under pressure even more to stabilize.
> 
> I've also proposed in another subthread that we could easily add a
> Kconfig option that could be used for people to decide whether they want
> to use experimental bindings or not. If they don't, then their device
> may simply run with degraded functionality. In my opinion that will also
> help to get experimental bindings to a more stable state. I expect that
> there will always be people that run a "conservative" configuration with
> only stable bindings allowed, and if they end up missing out on much of
> the functionality there's even more incentive to get bindings tested and
> stabilized.

I can imagine situations where we have a trivial stable binding for the
"enterprise" users but then a feature rich experimental binding for the
same class of devices. The latter will result from all the vendors
pumping out new SoCs with previously unthought of configurations. This
does seems to allow both camps to be happy.

> Marking bindings as experimental will also allow us to go and remove a
> binding altogether when it has failed to stabilize after some period of
> time. I believe there's a similar policy in the staging tree.

I like it...as long as this is coupled with a process of DT binding
review that allows the experimental bindings to evolve over time just
like kernel frameworks.

The use case I think of is a new SoC entering the kernel. At first you
get your basics going and upstream: uart, mmc, etc. No common clock
driver and no PMU driver, those may be handled in the bootloader at
first. No need to have clock and regulator support in the binding at
this point. Then you incrementally add clock support and the properties
for the experimental bindings that are consumers of clocks. Same for
PMU/regulator support.

No more "we know everything for this entire SoC on day 0" for bindings.

-Matt
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe devicetree" in
the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html