* [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83
@ 2025-03-06 9:11 A. Zini
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings A. Zini
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: A. Zini @ 2025-03-06 9:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Rob Herring, Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut
Cc: Andrej Picej, Dmitry Baryshkov, devicetree, dri-devel,
Alessandro Zini
From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
This patch series adds support for disabling the generation of h/vsync signals
on the ti-sn65dsi83 bridge.
This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do not
ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level or ground.
A discussion (1) on TI's E2E forum confirms that this may be required for some
panels.
(1) https://e2e.ti.com/support/interface-group/interface/f/interface-forum/1475734/sn65dsi84-disable-hsync-and-vsync
Alessandro Zini (2):
dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings
drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support
.../bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml | 12 ++++++++++++
drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c | 16 ++++++++++++++--
2 files changed, 26 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
--
2.48.1
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings
2025-03-06 9:11 [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 A. Zini
@ 2025-03-06 9:11 ` A. Zini
2025-03-07 6:01 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support A. Zini
2025-03-07 21:24 ` [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 Rob Herring
2 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: A. Zini @ 2025-03-06 9:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Rob Herring, Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut
Cc: Andrej Picej, Dmitry Baryshkov, devicetree, dri-devel,
Alessandro Zini
From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
Add hsync- and vsync-disable bindings, used to disable the generation of
h/vsync signals.
Signed-off-by: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
---
.../bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml | 12 ++++++++++++
1 file changed, 12 insertions(+)
diff --git a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
index 9b5f3f3eab198..ff80876d504ad 100644
--- a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
+++ b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
@@ -94,6 +94,18 @@ properties:
- port@0
- port@2
+ hsync-disable:
+ type: boolean
+ description: |
+ Disable HSYNC generation on the LVDS output by setting the
+ width in pixel clocks of the hsync pulse width to 0.
+
+ vsync-disable:
+ type: boolean
+ description: |
+ Disable VSYNC generation on the LVDS output by setting the
+ length in lines of the vsync pulse width to 0.
+
required:
- compatible
- reg
--
2.48.1
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support
2025-03-06 9:11 [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 A. Zini
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings A. Zini
@ 2025-03-06 9:11 ` A. Zini
2025-03-07 6:05 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
2025-03-07 21:24 ` [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 Rob Herring
2 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: A. Zini @ 2025-03-06 9:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Rob Herring, Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut
Cc: Andrej Picej, Dmitry Baryshkov, devicetree, dri-devel,
Alessandro Zini
From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
The h/vsync-disable properties are used to control whether to use or
not h/vsync signals, by configuring their pulse width to zero.
This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do
not ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level
or ground.
Signed-off-by: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
---
drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c | 16 ++++++++++++++--
1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
diff --git a/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c b/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
index 95563aa1b450d..c94ea92159402 100644
--- a/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
+++ b/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
@@ -164,6 +164,8 @@ struct sn65dsi83 {
int irq;
struct delayed_work monitor_work;
struct work_struct reset_work;
+ bool hsync_disable;
+ bool vsync_disable;
};
static const struct regmap_range sn65dsi83_readable_ranges[] = {
@@ -604,10 +606,12 @@ static void sn65dsi83_atomic_pre_enable(struct drm_bridge *bridge,
/* 32 + 1 pixel clock to ensure proper operation */
le16val = cpu_to_le16(32 + 1);
regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_SYNC_DELAY_LOW, &le16val, 2);
- le16val = cpu_to_le16(mode->hsync_end - mode->hsync_start);
+ le16val = cpu_to_le16(ctx->hsync_disable ?
+ 0 : mode->hsync_end - mode->hsync_start);
regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_HSYNC_PULSE_WIDTH_LOW,
&le16val, 2);
- le16val = cpu_to_le16(mode->vsync_end - mode->vsync_start);
+ le16val = cpu_to_le16(ctx->vsync_disable ?
+ 0 : mode->vsync_end - mode->vsync_start);
regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_VSYNC_PULSE_WIDTH_LOW,
&le16val, 2);
regmap_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_HORIZONTAL_BACK_PORCH,
@@ -867,6 +871,14 @@ static int sn65dsi83_parse_dt(struct sn65dsi83 *ctx, enum sn65dsi83_model model)
}
}
+ ctx->hsync_disable = false;
+ if (of_property_present(dev->of_node, "hsync-disable"))
+ ctx->hsync_disable = true;
+
+ ctx->vsync_disable = false;
+ if (of_property_present(dev->of_node, "vsync-disable"))
+ ctx->vsync_disable = true;
+
panel_bridge = devm_drm_of_get_bridge(dev, dev->of_node, 2, 0);
if (IS_ERR(panel_bridge))
return dev_err_probe(dev, PTR_ERR(panel_bridge), "Failed to get panel bridge\n");
--
2.48.1
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings A. Zini
@ 2025-03-07 6:01 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Baryshkov @ 2025-03-07 6:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: A. Zini
Cc: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Rob Herring, Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut,
Andrej Picej, devicetree, dri-devel
On Thu, Mar 06, 2025 at 10:11:32AM +0100, A. Zini wrote:
> From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
>
> Add hsync- and vsync-disable bindings, used to disable the generation of
> h/vsync signals.
Please describe, why this is necessary at all, instead of desribing the
contents of the patch.
>
> Signed-off-by: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
> ---
> .../bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml | 12 ++++++++++++
> 1 file changed, 12 insertions(+)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
> index 9b5f3f3eab198..ff80876d504ad 100644
> --- a/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
> +++ b/Documentation/devicetree/bindings/display/bridge/ti,sn65dsi83.yaml
> @@ -94,6 +94,18 @@ properties:
> - port@0
> - port@2
>
> + hsync-disable:
> + type: boolean
> + description: |
> + Disable HSYNC generation on the LVDS output by setting the
> + width in pixel clocks of the hsync pulse width to 0.
> +
> + vsync-disable:
> + type: boolean
> + description: |
> + Disable VSYNC generation on the LVDS output by setting the
> + length in lines of the vsync pulse width to 0.
> +
> required:
> - compatible
> - reg
> --
> 2.48.1
>
--
With best wishes
Dmitry
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support A. Zini
@ 2025-03-07 6:05 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
2025-03-11 15:27 ` Zini, Alessandro
0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Baryshkov @ 2025-03-07 6:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: A. Zini
Cc: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Rob Herring, Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut,
Andrej Picej, devicetree, dri-devel
On Thu, Mar 06, 2025 at 10:11:33AM +0100, A. Zini wrote:
> From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
>
> The h/vsync-disable properties are used to control whether to use or
> not h/vsync signals, by configuring their pulse width to zero.
>
> This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do
> not ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level
> or ground.
If this is required by 'some panels', then it should be a property of
the panel, not by the bridge itself. Can the panel return the mode with
hsync_end = hsync_start and vsync_enc = vsync_start?
>
> Signed-off-by: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
> ---
> drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c | 16 ++++++++++++++--
> 1 file changed, 14 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c b/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
> index 95563aa1b450d..c94ea92159402 100644
> --- a/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
> +++ b/drivers/gpu/drm/bridge/ti-sn65dsi83.c
> @@ -164,6 +164,8 @@ struct sn65dsi83 {
> int irq;
> struct delayed_work monitor_work;
> struct work_struct reset_work;
> + bool hsync_disable;
> + bool vsync_disable;
> };
>
> static const struct regmap_range sn65dsi83_readable_ranges[] = {
> @@ -604,10 +606,12 @@ static void sn65dsi83_atomic_pre_enable(struct drm_bridge *bridge,
> /* 32 + 1 pixel clock to ensure proper operation */
> le16val = cpu_to_le16(32 + 1);
> regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_SYNC_DELAY_LOW, &le16val, 2);
> - le16val = cpu_to_le16(mode->hsync_end - mode->hsync_start);
> + le16val = cpu_to_le16(ctx->hsync_disable ?
> + 0 : mode->hsync_end - mode->hsync_start);
> regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_HSYNC_PULSE_WIDTH_LOW,
> &le16val, 2);
> - le16val = cpu_to_le16(mode->vsync_end - mode->vsync_start);
> + le16val = cpu_to_le16(ctx->vsync_disable ?
> + 0 : mode->vsync_end - mode->vsync_start);
> regmap_bulk_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_VSYNC_PULSE_WIDTH_LOW,
> &le16val, 2);
> regmap_write(ctx->regmap, REG_VID_CHA_HORIZONTAL_BACK_PORCH,
> @@ -867,6 +871,14 @@ static int sn65dsi83_parse_dt(struct sn65dsi83 *ctx, enum sn65dsi83_model model)
> }
> }
>
> + ctx->hsync_disable = false;
> + if (of_property_present(dev->of_node, "hsync-disable"))
> + ctx->hsync_disable = true;
> +
> + ctx->vsync_disable = false;
> + if (of_property_present(dev->of_node, "vsync-disable"))
> + ctx->vsync_disable = true;
> +
> panel_bridge = devm_drm_of_get_bridge(dev, dev->of_node, 2, 0);
> if (IS_ERR(panel_bridge))
> return dev_err_probe(dev, PTR_ERR(panel_bridge), "Failed to get panel bridge\n");
> --
> 2.48.1
>
--
With best wishes
Dmitry
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83
2025-03-06 9:11 [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 A. Zini
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings A. Zini
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support A. Zini
@ 2025-03-07 21:24 ` Rob Herring
2 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Rob Herring @ 2025-03-07 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: A. Zini
Cc: Andrzej Hajda, Neil Armstrong, Robert Foss, Laurent Pinchart,
Jonas Karlman, Jernej Skrabec, David Airlie, Simona Vetter,
Krzysztof Kozlowski, Conor Dooley, Marek Vasut, Andrej Picej,
Dmitry Baryshkov, devicetree, dri-devel
On Thu, Mar 06, 2025 at 10:11:31AM +0100, A. Zini wrote:
> From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
>
> This patch series adds support for disabling the generation of h/vsync signals
> on the ti-sn65dsi83 bridge.
>
> This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do not
> ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level or ground.
>
> A discussion (1) on TI's E2E forum confirms that this may be required for some
> panels.
If this is a property of the panel then it should be in the panel's
endpoint or implicit with implicit being preferred. It should not be
defined in some bridge binding.
Rob
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support
2025-03-07 6:05 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
@ 2025-03-11 15:27 ` Zini, Alessandro
2025-03-25 17:51 ` Sverdlin, Alexander
0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Zini, Alessandro @ 2025-03-11 15:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: dmitry.baryshkov@linaro.org
Cc: Laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com, andrzej.hajda@intel.com,
neil.armstrong@linaro.org, simona@ffwll.ch,
andrej.picej@norik.com, devicetree@vger.kernel.org,
robh@kernel.org, rfoss@kernel.org, airlied@gmail.com,
krzk+dt@kernel.org, jonas@kwiboo.se, jernej.skrabec@gmail.com,
conor+dt@kernel.org, dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org,
marex@denx.de
On Fri, 2025-03-07 at 08:05 +0200, Dmitry Baryshkov wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 06, 2025 at 10:11:33AM +0100, A. Zini wrote:
> > From: Alessandro Zini <alessandro.zini@siemens.com>
> >
> > The h/vsync-disable properties are used to control whether to use or
> > not h/vsync signals, by configuring their pulse width to zero.
> >
> > This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do
> > not ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level
> > or ground.
>
> If this is required by 'some panels', then it should be a property of
> the panel, not by the bridge itself.
I got the same, rightful objection also from Rob. I'll answer here to
the both of you with the reasoning behind the submission of this patch.
Actually, I waited for a while before sending this patch, because I
originally had the same opinion. I do still have some difficulties
drawing the line between "this is a panel property" and "this is a
configurable feature of the bridge".
However, I have also prepared a second patch which adds support for
configuring the LVDS near-end termination. Afterward, I found that this
feature has already made its way in recently, so I dropped the patch.
Arguably still, that feature could be seen in the same way as the one
added from this patch, since a panel might require 100 Ohm, while
another 200 Ohm. Likewise, a panel might require h/vsync signals, while
another might require them to be zero/absent.
The TI E2E discussion I have attached to the cover letter of this patch
series eventually made me change my mind. From my point of view, the
discussion implies that avoiding the generation of h/vsync signals is
indeed a (configurable) feature of the bridge, even though not
explicitly documented in its datasheet.
Given the two reasons above, I think this patch would better fit in the
bridge rather than in the panel (which, for context, is driven as a
simple-panel).
> Can the panel return the mode with hsync_end = hsync_start and
> vsync_enc = vsync_start?
I did try to set <h/vsync-len> to zero, which resulted in vsync_end =
vsync_start and hsync_end = hsync_start, while also adjusting the other
blanking properties. I am not sure if this is what you meant.
However, this resulted in an issue along the pipeline, and ultimately
caused drm_atomic_helper_wait_for_vblanks() to timeout.
--
Alessandro
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support
2025-03-11 15:27 ` Zini, Alessandro
@ 2025-03-25 17:51 ` Sverdlin, Alexander
0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Sverdlin, Alexander @ 2025-03-25 17:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: robh@kernel.org, dmitry.baryshkov@oss.qualcomm.com,
Zini, Alessandro
Cc: Laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com, andrzej.hajda@intel.com,
neil.armstrong@linaro.org, simona@ffwll.ch,
andrej.picej@norik.com, devicetree@vger.kernel.org,
dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org, airlied@gmail.com,
rfoss@kernel.org, krzk+dt@kernel.org, jonas@kwiboo.se,
jernej.skrabec@gmail.com, conor+dt@kernel.org, marex@denx.de
Hi Rob, Dmitry,
On Tue, 2025-03-11 at 15:27 +0000, Zini, Alessandro wrote:
> > > The h/vsync-disable properties are used to control whether to use or
> > > not h/vsync signals, by configuring their pulse width to zero.
> > >
> > > This is required on some panels which are driven in DE-only mode but do
> > > not ignore sync packets, and instead require them to be low-voltage level
> > > or ground.
> >
> > If this is required by 'some panels', then it should be a property of
> > the panel, not by the bridge itself.
>
> I got the same, rightful objection also from Rob. I'll answer here to
> the both of you with the reasoning behind the submission of this patch.
> Actually, I waited for a while before sending this patch, because I
> originally had the same opinion. I do still have some difficulties
> drawing the line between "this is a panel property" and "this is a
> configurable feature of the bridge".
>
> However, I have also prepared a second patch which adds support for
> configuring the LVDS near-end termination. Afterward, I found that this
> feature has already made its way in recently, so I dropped the patch.
> Arguably still, that feature could be seen in the same way as the one
> added from this patch, since a panel might require 100 Ohm, while
> another 200 Ohm. Likewise, a panel might require h/vsync signals, while
> another might require them to be zero/absent.
>
> The TI E2E discussion I have attached to the cover letter of this patch
> series eventually made me change my mind. From my point of view, the
> discussion implies that avoiding the generation of h/vsync signals is
> indeed a (configurable) feature of the bridge, even though not
> explicitly documented in its datasheet.
>
> Given the two reasons above, I think this patch would better fit in the
> bridge rather than in the panel (which, for context, is driven as a
> simple-panel).
>
> > Can the panel return the mode with hsync_end = hsync_start and
> > vsync_enc = vsync_start?
>
> I did try to set <h/vsync-len> to zero, which resulted in vsync_end =
> vsync_start and hsync_end = hsync_start, while also adjusting the other
> blanking properties. I am not sure if this is what you meant.
> However, this resulted in an issue along the pipeline, and ultimately
> caused drm_atomic_helper_wait_for_vblanks() to timeout.
the problem here is that actually we cannot model this pipeline with
the current Linux state of affairs: the bridge requires hsync/vsync signals
and the panel only works if they are always "0". With the only
solution we've found to set their length to "0" in the bridge itself.
So it's a quirk, not a proper configuration. A proper configuration would
lead to vsync/hsync missing in the whole pipeline and the bridge cannot
sync.
As I understand, currently DRM subsystem only supports different polarities
of the vsync/hsync signals along the pipeline, but not the entirely
different configuration (i.e. present/missing sync pulses for different
parts in the pipeline).
As I undestand, the bridges do not look into the panel properties directly,
but rather there is a common "mode" negotiated, but what to do if we have
different requirements along the pipeline?
--
Alexander Sverdlin
Siemens AG
www.siemens.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2025-03-25 17:51 UTC | newest]
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2025-03-06 9:11 [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 A. Zini
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 1/2] dt-bindings: drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable bindings A. Zini
2025-03-07 6:01 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
2025-03-06 9:11 ` [PATCH 2/2] drm/bridge: ti-sn65dsi83: add h/vsync-disable support A. Zini
2025-03-07 6:05 ` Dmitry Baryshkov
2025-03-11 15:27 ` Zini, Alessandro
2025-03-25 17:51 ` Sverdlin, Alexander
2025-03-07 21:24 ` [PATCH 0/2] Introduce h/vsync-disable properties for ti-sn65dsi83 Rob Herring
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