Re: [Ksummit-2013-discuss] ARM topic: Is DT on ARM the solution, or is there something better?

[Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart-ryLnwIuWjnjg/C1BVhZhaw@public.gmane.org>]

Hi Russell,

On Monday 21 October 2013 09:48:54 Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 10:32:42AM +0200, Sascha Hauer wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 12:11:34AM +0100, Russell King - ARM Linux wrote:
> > > On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 10:26:54PM +0100, Stephen Warren wrote:
> > > > The only thing we've really moved out of the kernel is the exact IDs
> > > > of which GPIOS, interrupts, I2C/SPI ports the devices are connected
> > > > to; the simple stuff not the hard stuff. The code hasn't really been
> > > > simplified by DT - if anything, it's more complicated since we now
> > > > have to parse those values from DT rather than putting them into
> > > > simple data-structures.
> > > 
> > > Here's my random thoughts this evening on DT, orientated mostly on a
> > > problem area I've been paying attention to recently.
> > > 
> > > In some ways, DT has made things much harder.  I don't know whether
> > > you've taken a look at DRM and the various drivers we have under there,
> > > it's quite a mess of unreliable code which is trying to bend the DRM
> > > card based model to a DT based multi-device component based description
> > > with lots of sub-drivers.
> > > 
> > > What DRM currently expects is a certain initialisation order: the main
> > > drm_device structure is created by the DRM code, and then supplied to
> > > the DRM driver to populate all the different parts of the "DRM card".
> > > 
> > > Once all parts of the card have been setup (the CRTCs, encoders,
> > > connectors, etc) then some helpers can be initialised.  Once the
> > > helpers have been initialised, the "dimensions" of the "DRM card"
> > > become rather fixed until the helper is torn down.
> > > 
> > > The problem is this: if you have a multi-driver based card, there is
> > > no way to prevent any of those sub-drivers from being unbound from
> > > their drivers at any time.  module refcounts don't save you from this.
> > > Meanwhile, (at the moment) you can't half-tear down a "DRM card" and
> > > have it still in a usable state.  The internals just don't allow for
> > > it at present.
> > > 
> > > Yes, work can be put in to solve this problem, but it's being solved
> > > because of a desire to bend the subsystem to the DT way of doing things.
> > > That may or may not be the best idea.  However, what I do know is that
> > > there is now great pressure to "bend stuff so that it works with DT
> > > at all costs".  Evidence is the Exynos driver and the imx-drm driver.
> > 
> > In fact it was the other way round. We modeled the IPU devicetree
> > binding after the hardware and bended the driver around it. The DRM
> > single-card model is the limiting fator here, not the devicetree.
> 
> There are several points which I think you failed to understand:
> 
> 1. DRM vs device tree is an incompatibility.
> 2. Trying to bend DRM to DT with independent driver solutions such as
>    the abomination that is imx-drm creates its own set of problems.
> 
> If a subsystem doesn't work well with DT, then the choices are either:
> 
> (a) don't use DT with the subsystem
> (b) fix the subsystem
> 
> The choices do not include:
> 
> (c) creating an abomination that is fragile, and is trivially easy to
> oops the kernel.

I would also add, in the choices I (we?) don't want

(d) custom driver-specific solutions that will break when the next version of 
the SoC is released.

> This comes back to the root problem I'm trying to highlight: we are not
> trying to strive for DT forsaking everything else.  If moving to DT means we
> give up with proper code design, then we've quite literally lost the plot.

I started looking into DT bindings for my DRM drivers more than a year ago. It 
started with the simple task of creating bindings for panels, but it quickly 
became clear (to me at least) that the issue was much bigger than that. This 
is what prompted me to work on the Common Display Framework (CDF) that you 
might have heard about.

Please note that the idea behind CDF isn't DT-centric, its main goal is to 
offer a (hopefully clean and simple) way to handle composite hardware devices 
that are so common in the embedded world, using one driver per chip and/or IP 
core (there's no *requirement* to split the SoC hardware support code in 
multiple drivers in CDF, but it allows doing so when the SoC is made of 
generic IP cores that are reused in different composite devices - a good 
example of that is a video scaler that can be instantiated in a display 
pipeline and a camera pipeline).

I haven't been able to spend as much time on CDF as I would have liked to so 
far, but I haven't given up. I would be more than happy to discuss this during 
ELC-E/KS if you would like.

> Honestly, I don't see imx-drm ever moving out of drivers/staging except by
> deletion or being rewritten.

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart
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