* [PATCH v4 1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option
2025-11-27 15:16 [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Derek J. Clark
@ 2025-11-27 15:16 ` Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 22:10 ` Armin Wolf
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 2/3] platform/x86: lenovo-wmi-gamezone Use max-power rather than balanced-performance Derek J. Clark
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread
From: Derek J. Clark @ 2025-11-27 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ilpo Järvinen, Armin Wolf, Len Brown, Rafael J . Wysocki,
Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao, Mark Pearson,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja, Derek J . Clark,
platform-driver-x86, linux-doc, linux-kernel, linux-acpi
Some devices, namely Lenovo Legion devices, have an "extreme" mode where
power draw is at the maximum limit of the cooling hardware. Add a new
"max-power" platform profile to properly reflect this operating mode.
Reviewed-by: Mario Limonciello (AMD) <superm1@kernel.org>
Acked-by: Rafael J. Wysocki (Intel) <rafael@kernel.org>
Signed-off-by: Derek J. Clark <derekjohn.clark@gmail.com>
---
Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile | 2 ++
drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c | 7 +++++--
include/linux/platform_profile.h | 1 +
3 files changed, 8 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
diff --git a/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile b/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
index dc72adfb830a..fcab26894ec3 100644
--- a/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
+++ b/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
@@ -23,6 +23,8 @@ Description: This file contains a space-separated list of profiles supported
power consumption with a slight bias
towards performance
performance High performance operation
+ max-power Higher performance operation that may exceed
+ internal battery draw limits when on AC power
custom Driver defined custom profile
==================== ========================================
diff --git a/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c b/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
index b43f4459a4f6..ea04a8c69215 100644
--- a/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
+++ b/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
@@ -37,6 +37,7 @@ static const char * const profile_names[] = {
[PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED] = "balanced",
[PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE] = "balanced-performance",
[PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE] = "performance",
+ [PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER] = "max-power",
[PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM] = "custom",
};
static_assert(ARRAY_SIZE(profile_names) == PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST);
@@ -506,7 +507,8 @@ int platform_profile_cycle(void)
if (err)
return err;
- if (profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM ||
+ if (profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER ||
+ profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM ||
profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST)
return -EINVAL;
@@ -515,7 +517,8 @@ int platform_profile_cycle(void)
if (err)
return err;
- /* never iterate into a custom if all drivers supported it */
+ /* never iterate into a custom or max power if all drivers supported it */
+ clear_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER, data.aggregate);
clear_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM, data.aggregate);
next = find_next_bit_wrap(data.aggregate,
diff --git a/include/linux/platform_profile.h b/include/linux/platform_profile.h
index a299225ab92e..855b28340e95 100644
--- a/include/linux/platform_profile.h
+++ b/include/linux/platform_profile.h
@@ -24,6 +24,7 @@ enum platform_profile_option {
PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED,
PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE,
PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE,
+ PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER,
PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM,
PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST, /*must always be last */
};
--
2.51.2
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* Re: [PATCH v4 1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option Derek J. Clark
@ 2025-11-27 22:10 ` Armin Wolf
0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Armin Wolf @ 2025-11-27 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Derek J. Clark, Ilpo Järvinen, Len Brown, Rafael J . Wysocki,
Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao, Mark Pearson,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja, platform-driver-x86,
linux-doc, linux-kernel, linux-acpi
Am 27.11.25 um 16:16 schrieb Derek J. Clark:
> Some devices, namely Lenovo Legion devices, have an "extreme" mode where
> power draw is at the maximum limit of the cooling hardware. Add a new
> "max-power" platform profile to properly reflect this operating mode.
Reviewed-by: Armin Wolf <W_Armin@gmx.de>
> Reviewed-by: Mario Limonciello (AMD) <superm1@kernel.org>
> Acked-by: Rafael J. Wysocki (Intel) <rafael@kernel.org>
> Signed-off-by: Derek J. Clark <derekjohn.clark@gmail.com>
> ---
> Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile | 2 ++
> drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c | 7 +++++--
> include/linux/platform_profile.h | 1 +
> 3 files changed, 8 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)
>
> diff --git a/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile b/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
> index dc72adfb830a..fcab26894ec3 100644
> --- a/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
> +++ b/Documentation/ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile
> @@ -23,6 +23,8 @@ Description: This file contains a space-separated list of profiles supported
> power consumption with a slight bias
> towards performance
> performance High performance operation
> + max-power Higher performance operation that may exceed
> + internal battery draw limits when on AC power
> custom Driver defined custom profile
> ==================== ========================================
>
> diff --git a/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c b/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
> index b43f4459a4f6..ea04a8c69215 100644
> --- a/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
> +++ b/drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c
> @@ -37,6 +37,7 @@ static const char * const profile_names[] = {
> [PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED] = "balanced",
> [PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE] = "balanced-performance",
> [PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE] = "performance",
> + [PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER] = "max-power",
> [PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM] = "custom",
> };
> static_assert(ARRAY_SIZE(profile_names) == PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST);
> @@ -506,7 +507,8 @@ int platform_profile_cycle(void)
> if (err)
> return err;
>
> - if (profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM ||
> + if (profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER ||
> + profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM ||
> profile == PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST)
> return -EINVAL;
>
> @@ -515,7 +517,8 @@ int platform_profile_cycle(void)
> if (err)
> return err;
>
> - /* never iterate into a custom if all drivers supported it */
> + /* never iterate into a custom or max power if all drivers supported it */
> + clear_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER, data.aggregate);
> clear_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM, data.aggregate);
>
> next = find_next_bit_wrap(data.aggregate,
> diff --git a/include/linux/platform_profile.h b/include/linux/platform_profile.h
> index a299225ab92e..855b28340e95 100644
> --- a/include/linux/platform_profile.h
> +++ b/include/linux/platform_profile.h
> @@ -24,6 +24,7 @@ enum platform_profile_option {
> PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED,
> PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE,
> PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE,
> + PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER,
> PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM,
> PLATFORM_PROFILE_LAST, /*must always be last */
> };
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* [PATCH v4 2/3] platform/x86: lenovo-wmi-gamezone Use max-power rather than balanced-performance
2025-11-27 15:16 [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option Derek J. Clark
@ 2025-11-27 15:16 ` Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 3/3] platform/x86: wmi-gamezone: Add Legion Go 2 Quirks Derek J. Clark
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Derek J. Clark @ 2025-11-27 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ilpo Järvinen, Armin Wolf, Len Brown, Rafael J . Wysocki,
Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao, Mark Pearson,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja, Derek J . Clark,
platform-driver-x86, linux-doc, linux-kernel, linux-acpi
When developing the gamezone WMI drivers, "extreme mode" was matched to
the performance platform profile and "performance" was matched to the
balanced-performance platform profile, but only if extreme mode was
fully supported; otherwise performance was matched to the "performance"
platform profile. This has led to quite a bit of confusion with users
not understanding why the LED color indicating the platform profile
doesn't match their expectations.
To solve this, replace the confusing convention by using the new
max-power profile to represent "extreme mode". While add it, update the
documentation to reflect the expected LED colors in each operating mode.
Signed-off-by: Derek J. Clark <derekjohn.clark@gmail.com>
driver
---
.../wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst | 31 +++++++++----------
drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c | 18 +++--------
2 files changed, 20 insertions(+), 29 deletions(-)
diff --git a/Documentation/wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst b/Documentation/wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst
index 997263e51a7d..1769ad3d57b9 100644
--- a/Documentation/wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst
+++ b/Documentation/wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst
@@ -19,27 +19,26 @@ WMI GUID ``887B54E3-DDDC-4B2C-8B88-68A26A8835D0``
The Gamezone Data WMI interface provides platform-profile and fan curve
settings for devices that fall under the "Gaming Series" of Lenovo devices.
It uses a notifier chain to inform other Lenovo WMI interface drivers of the
-current platform profile when it changes.
+current platform profile when it changes. The currently set profile can be
+determined by the user on the hardware by looking at the color of the power
+or profile LED, depending on the model.
The following platform profiles are supported:
- - low-power
- - balanced
- - balanced-performance
- - performance
- - custom
+ - low-power, blue LED
+ - balanced, white LED
+ - performance, red LED
+ - max-power, purple LED
+ - custom, purple LED
-Balanced-Performance
+Extreme Mode
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Some newer Lenovo "Gaming Series" laptops have an "Extreme Mode" profile
-enabled in their BIOS. For these devices, the performance platform profile
-corresponds to the BIOS Extreme Mode, while the balanced-performance
-platform profile corresponds to the BIOS Performance mode. For legacy
-devices, the performance platform profile will correspond with the BIOS
-Performance mode.
-
-For some newer devices the "Extreme Mode" profile is incomplete in the BIOS
-and setting it will cause undefined behavior. A BIOS bug quirk table is
-provided to ensure these devices cannot set "Extreme Mode" from the driver.
+enabled in their BIOS. When available, this mode will be represented by the
+max-power platform profile.
+
+For a subset of these devices the "Extreme Mode" profile is incomplete in
+the BIOS and setting it will cause undefined behavior. A BIOS bug quirk table
+is provided to ensure these devices cannot set "Extreme Mode" from the driver.
Custom Profile
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
diff --git a/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c b/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
index 0eb7fe8222f4..df475e52f79d 100644
--- a/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
+++ b/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
@@ -171,14 +171,10 @@ static int lwmi_gz_profile_get(struct device *dev,
*profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED;
break;
case LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_PERFORMANCE:
- if (priv->extreme_supported) {
- *profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE;
- break;
- }
*profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE;
break;
case LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_EXTREME:
- *profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE;
+ *profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER;
break;
case LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_CUSTOM:
*profile = PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM;
@@ -218,16 +214,12 @@ static int lwmi_gz_profile_set(struct device *dev,
case PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED:
mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_BALANCED;
break;
- case PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE:
- mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_PERFORMANCE;
- break;
case PLATFORM_PROFILE_PERFORMANCE:
- if (priv->extreme_supported) {
- mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_EXTREME;
- break;
- }
mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_PERFORMANCE;
break;
+ case PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER:
+ mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_EXTREME;
+ break;
case PLATFORM_PROFILE_CUSTOM:
mode = LWMI_GZ_THERMAL_MODE_CUSTOM;
break;
@@ -338,7 +330,7 @@ static int lwmi_gz_platform_profile_probe(void *drvdata, unsigned long *choices)
priv->extreme_supported = lwmi_gz_extreme_supported(profile_support_ver);
if (priv->extreme_supported)
- set_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_BALANCED_PERFORMANCE, choices);
+ set_bit(PLATFORM_PROFILE_MAX_POWER, choices);
return 0;
}
--
2.51.2
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* [PATCH v4 3/3] platform/x86: wmi-gamezone: Add Legion Go 2 Quirks
2025-11-27 15:16 [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 2/3] platform/x86: lenovo-wmi-gamezone Use max-power rather than balanced-performance Derek J. Clark
@ 2025-11-27 15:16 ` Derek J. Clark
2025-11-27 22:48 ` [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Mark Pearson
2025-11-28 10:25 ` Ilpo Järvinen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Derek J. Clark @ 2025-11-27 15:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Ilpo Järvinen, Armin Wolf, Len Brown, Rafael J . Wysocki,
Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao, Mark Pearson,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja, Derek J . Clark,
platform-driver-x86, linux-doc, linux-kernel, linux-acpi
Add Legion Go 2 SKU's to the Extreme Mode quirks table.
Signed-off-by: Derek J. Clark <derekjohn.clark@gmail.com>
---
drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c | 17 ++++++++++++++++-
1 file changed, 16 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
diff --git a/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c b/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
index df475e52f79d..381836d29a96 100644
--- a/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
+++ b/drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c
@@ -266,8 +266,23 @@ static const struct dmi_system_id fwbug_list[] = {
},
.driver_data = &quirk_no_extreme_bug,
},
+ {
+ .ident = "Legion Go 8ASP2",
+ .matches = {
+ DMI_MATCH(DMI_SYS_VENDOR, "LENOVO"),
+ DMI_MATCH(DMI_PRODUCT_VERSION, "Legion Go 8ASP2"),
+ },
+ .driver_data = &quirk_no_extreme_bug,
+ },
+ {
+ .ident = "Legion Go 8AHP2",
+ .matches = {
+ DMI_MATCH(DMI_SYS_VENDOR, "LENOVO"),
+ DMI_MATCH(DMI_PRODUCT_VERSION, "Legion Go 8AHP2"),
+ },
+ .driver_data = &quirk_no_extreme_bug,
+ },
{},
-
};
/**
--
2.51.2
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* Re: [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile
2025-11-27 15:16 [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Derek J. Clark
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2025-11-27 15:16 ` [PATCH v4 3/3] platform/x86: wmi-gamezone: Add Legion Go 2 Quirks Derek J. Clark
@ 2025-11-27 22:48 ` Mark Pearson
2025-11-28 10:25 ` Ilpo Järvinen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Mark Pearson @ 2025-11-27 22:48 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Derek J . Clark, Ilpo Järvinen, Armin Wolf, Len Brown,
Rafael J. Wysocki, Jonathan Corbet
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja,
platform-driver-x86@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc, linux-kernel,
linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org
On Thu, Nov 27, 2025, at 10:16 AM, Derek J. Clark wrote:
> This series adds a new "max-power" platform profile mode and uses it for
> the lenovo-wmi-gamezone driver. It also adds the Lenovo Legion Go 2 to
> the extreme mode quirks table.
>
> On some Lenovo Legion devices there is a thermal mode called extreme
> that corresponds to setting ppt/spl vlaues to the maximum achievable by
> the cooling solution. This correlates strongly with an overall power draw
> that exceeds the DC power draw capability of the internal battery. This
> mode being mapped to performance when extreme mode is detected as
> supported, with the actual performance mode being set to
> balanced-performance, has led to some misinformation being promulgated
> that performance is always a bad setting in Linux for these devices.
> There is also some confusion that the mode labeled performance in
> userspace, which corresponds to a red LED in Windows, shows as purple
> when set using the hardware extreme mode.
>
> I'll also note that as the hard TDP limits are refreshed when on AC or DC
> by the ACPI notifier of lenovo-wmi-other method driver, no special handling
> of the battery is needed for safety limiting extreme mode.
>
> Signed-off-by: Derek J. Clark <derekjohn.clark@gmail.com>
>
> ---
> v4:
> - prevent platform_profile_cycle() from selecting max_power.
> v3:
> https://lore.kernel.org/platform-driver-x86/20251113212639.459896-1-derekjohn.clark@gmail.com/
> - Rename the vendor specific "extreme" to a vendor agnositic
> "max-power"
> to better allign with the "low-power" platform profile.
> v2:
> https://lore.kernel.org/platform-driver-x86/20251106212121.447030-1-derekjohn.clark@gmail.com/
> - Drop patch 3/3, keep extreme mode quirks table
> - Add Legion Go 2 to quirks table
> - Fix nits from Mario
> v1:
> https://lore.kernel.org/platform-driver-x86/20251026081240.997038-1-derekjohn.clark@gmail.com/
>
>
> Derek J. Clark (3):
> acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option
> platform/x86: lenovo-wmi-gamezone Use max-power rather than
> balanced-performance
> platform/x86: wmi-gamezone: Add Legion Go 2 Quirks
>
> .../ABI/testing/sysfs-class-platform-profile | 2 ++
> .../wmi/devices/lenovo-wmi-gamezone.rst | 31 ++++++++--------
> drivers/acpi/platform_profile.c | 7 ++--
> drivers/platform/x86/lenovo/wmi-gamezone.c | 35 +++++++++++--------
> include/linux/platform_profile.h | 1 +
> 5 files changed, 44 insertions(+), 32 deletions(-)
>
> --
> 2.51.2
For the series - looks good to me.
Reviewed-by: Mark Pearson <mpearson-lenovo@squebb.ca>
Mark
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread* Re: [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile
2025-11-27 15:16 [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Derek J. Clark
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2025-11-27 22:48 ` [PATCH v4 0/3] Add max-power platform profile Mark Pearson
@ 2025-11-28 10:25 ` Ilpo Järvinen
4 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread
From: Ilpo Järvinen @ 2025-11-28 10:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Armin Wolf, Len Brown, Rafael J . Wysocki, Jonathan Corbet,
Derek J. Clark
Cc: Mario Limonciello, Zhixin Zhang, Mia Shao, Mark Pearson,
Pierre-Loup A . Griffais, Kurt Borja, platform-driver-x86,
linux-doc, linux-kernel, linux-acpi
On Thu, 27 Nov 2025 07:16:02 -0800, Derek J. Clark wrote:
> This series adds a new "max-power" platform profile mode and uses it for
> the lenovo-wmi-gamezone driver. It also adds the Lenovo Legion Go 2 to
> the extreme mode quirks table.
>
> On some Lenovo Legion devices there is a thermal mode called extreme
> that corresponds to setting ppt/spl vlaues to the maximum achievable by
> the cooling solution. This correlates strongly with an overall power draw
> that exceeds the DC power draw capability of the internal battery. This
> mode being mapped to performance when extreme mode is detected as
> supported, with the actual performance mode being set to
> balanced-performance, has led to some misinformation being promulgated
> that performance is always a bad setting in Linux for these devices.
> There is also some confusion that the mode labeled performance in
> userspace, which corresponds to a red LED in Windows, shows as purple
> when set using the hardware extreme mode.
>
> [...]
Thank you for your contribution, it has been applied to my local
review-ilpo-next branch. Note it will show up in the public
platform-drivers-x86/review-ilpo-next branch only once I've pushed my
local branch there, which might take a while.
The list of commits applied:
[1/3] acpi: platform_profile - Add max-power profile option
commit: 5aefbf5b68794870ccec126cd68bbfd1ee09283a
[2/3] platform/x86: lenovo-wmi-gamezone Use max-power rather than balanced-performance
commit: 8d0aef2b3a17e5ed3afc8c9a2e71f22ac41a799f
[3/3] platform/x86: wmi-gamezone: Add Legion Go 2 Quirks
commit: 55715d7ad5e772d621c3201da3895f250591bce8
--
i.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread