From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3CB1198E90; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 17:47:22 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1717696042; cv=none; b=KrnCktDFa7dJOFQ5UB22IU7JsD1K7NCnZex6M83CZFsx264vkiM3lpF55OuJcMLTanEJaRocUPa2dTw74uqmDsTuOsZMQgLB9f6SfDW8SIf7FC+psp3cqccltIkRlFMGuoH3ZMASN1bVt3gskvDTnCV6PP9U1E3iONpU/WhqcB0= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1717696042; c=relaxed/simple; bh=hfRZV1GKUUFYuwYuST74M+6PHE6LaJ1YGYc1o0TEW2E=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References:From: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=jGKpgcNU+YoVHNU0CAZJUHTfDenPD5Y33EOFV7irE1c2u/Nq88HWb9Dh1zyaLX0gh40vP9Vm4RrVawstARUs2VbxI96sMv7fBDwkQJ4VXEfMna8DNCLZBzKXz2xGpWnQeqTeJsOdZsuC5ibian1W42gmKv1ZA/1O9PUdR6V4pm4= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=H5LQ5cX0; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="H5LQ5cX0" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 555D9C32782; Thu, 6 Jun 2024 17:47:21 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1717696042; bh=hfRZV1GKUUFYuwYuST74M+6PHE6LaJ1YGYc1o0TEW2E=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To:From; b=H5LQ5cX0c64o31YkJ2tv9Dul2Yas8mv36ohOJOtlST1cjpDHmRlSpy1ws53TZ4M9p MnBwq2XIItr/IyVskD3g1zxhWPcgayepAAzicBBunKon/urIU586WlqSahOAOLjauQ gamzxRWUhLpWF4pjLc9E56azauVoSG82DAV+BPqOf5ag29srAastGf4+5Z0NcnNCYC dU7oIZkGqfLFlTzlxHm9UyZ6BCkuVl4q+oEKfvE4kWHuRGM0cazUClzSK76GO17+Xa +XcMmrCMPrx4wG0v/iVtD2YFTqqAIzXKEv75MNnmc2QG9+ynCUng/D/H3j/1iuW4yM vaUZLrMqNmHGg== Message-ID: <4724e6a1-2da1-4275-8807-b7fe6cd9b6c1@kernel.org> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:47:20 -0600 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-doc@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/8] Introduce fwctl subystem Content-Language: en-US To: Jakub Kicinski , Jason Gunthorpe Cc: Dan Williams , Jonathan Corbet , Itay Avraham , Leon Romanovsky , linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-rdma@vger.kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, Paolo Abeni , Saeed Mahameed , Tariq Toukan , Andy Gospodarek , Aron Silverton , Christoph Hellwig , Jiri Pirko , Leonid Bloch , Leon Romanovsky , linux-cxl@vger.kernel.org, patches@lists.linux.dev References: <0-v1-9912f1a11620+2a-fwctl_jgg@nvidia.com> <20240603114250.5325279c@kernel.org> <214d7d82-0916-4c29-9012-04590e77df73@kernel.org> <20240604070451.79cfb280@kernel.org> <665fa9c9e69de_4a4e62941e@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> <20240605135911.GT19897@nvidia.com> <20240606071811.34767cce@kernel.org> <20240606144818.GC19897@nvidia.com> <20240606080557.00f3163e@kernel.org> From: David Ahern In-Reply-To: <20240606080557.00f3163e@kernel.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/6/24 9:05 AM, Jakub Kicinski wrote: > On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:48:18 -0300 Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >>> An argument can be made that given somewhat mixed switchdev experience >>> we should just stay out of the way and let that happen. But just make >>> that argument then, instead of pretending the use of this API will be >>> limited to custom very vendor specific things. >> >> Huh? > > I'm sorry, David as been working in netdev for a long time. And I will continue working on Linux networking stack (netdev) while I also work with the IB S/W stack, fwctl, and any other part of Linux relevant to my job. I am not going to pick a silo (and should not be required to). > I have a tendency to address the person I'm replying to, > assuming their level of understanding of the problem space. > Which makes it harder to understand for bystanders. > >> At least mlx5 already has a very robust userspace competition to >> switchdev using RDMA APIs, available in DPDK. This is long since been >> done and is widely deployed. > > Yeah, we had this discussion multiple times The switchdev / sonic comparison came to mind as well during this thread. The existence of a kernel way (switchdev) has not stopped sonic (userspace SDK) from gaining traction. In some cases the SDK is required for device features that do not have a kernel uapi or vendors refuse to offer a kernel way, so it is the only option. The bottom line to me is that these hardline, dogmatic approaches - resisting the recognition of reality - is only harming users. There is a middle ground, open source drivers and tools that offer more flexibility.