From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BBAC7618E for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 16:03:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S240792AbjDZQDf (ORCPT ); Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:03:35 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:59118 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S240189AbjDZQDe (ORCPT ); Wed, 26 Apr 2023 12:03:34 -0400 Received: from mail-yb1-xb49.google.com (mail-yb1-xb49.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b49]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 232D84EE5 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb49.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-b9229bffbebso12417755276.0 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:03:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20221208; t=1682525010; x=1685117010; h=cc:to:from:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1iOXlTlBLlGt+xFnlJYCk9LyE8NZedUUmTtvF/W7cl8=; b=h+7lAviaHcHoFJpqy3l+q4CabqtBWTwMXj6h3C+ydRYC7L5NH31UBwdxn/KILMf1vm Y3vhdFcyJJxaJBnjdPnWm7EBsjBS8kuNRT0+c+ooFTlTSiIAeM+ZhPZ+v4avFK2rF6da NKHHFZS93BeoFnmnVNHb70DY2nYMrEXtIMaEcvAzh9FEsQlC+lu4UZrSdQJNIi3TbNiN Osqj2HWbJV565qJluzmWFQ2Zx94MqcPWBMekVUXkmQ0ynAuX+95+bgjNZRWPsXuaW3gU EXWxsZ29GFTlMsTaKN2ZOqlgY92cP9ECTwdj+vbRvLIyJcH5f/MnuTDBzk0s/4Dcuuor UogA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1682525010; x=1685117010; h=cc:to:from:subject:message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :date:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=1iOXlTlBLlGt+xFnlJYCk9LyE8NZedUUmTtvF/W7cl8=; b=HrejDAlpQoObw0fZOHcZ69jdSd5amOm1FxiRX2tXrlN3j381voU8VFcvlDZMBedjhn miPtY5QBGKXU0dqaf8M1sz271cKaACWdq2ScHQZVuCpf8hHv5tnz50LkYSTPaFKPFES1 NiGAFby7ALjkCQB4M/Itz1QNTxuWKmp/d++MaPvGIrYBFluqhqyRMmscXGAm/BwSycSI yy6ngII44HlrygnMFjjh0TVx5PFT5OJApcpzyT4sjaRZyqmR7Ub43Z2i6RiTQAePDQVz b2D4Lps4xw73QuN6oR5/KBsqcXfhGitw3Fft9NOooRNjQHvhHzMECAEE7ZB9IJISBLe5 gV8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dz//OqoVAl4j4tS1A89Bmk/s0yiRkK7NH0m8CZtfkscBGle9Z6 YLFYtfimBoMeclCqyXVC3XMhVO7npJY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350bLi2qJ+4nzU1ANPOt2oieWNNI6eHJyZmf0N2WaN8R6KPw5aRqvu3QGqGyegbPKHISQlL/Sdaz4cD4= X-Received: from zagreus.c.googlers.com ([fda3:e722:ac3:cc00:7f:e700:c0a8:5c37]) (user=seanjc job=sendgmr) by 2002:a25:cac4:0:b0:b8f:1d2c:243f with SMTP id a187-20020a25cac4000000b00b8f1d2c243fmr7979508ybg.1.1682525010384; Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2023 09:03:28 -0700 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 References: <20230327141816.2648615-1-carlos.bilbao@amd.com> Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH] docs: security: Confidential computing intro and threat model From: Sean Christopherson To: Dave Hansen Cc: Carlos Bilbao , corbet@lwn.net, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, ardb@kernel.org, kraxel@redhat.com, dovmurik@linux.ibm.com, elena.reshetova@intel.com, dave.hansen@linux.intel.com, Dhaval.Giani@amd.com, michael.day@amd.com, pavankumar.paluri@amd.com, David.Kaplan@amd.com, Reshma.Lal@amd.com, Jeremy.Powell@amd.com, sathyanarayanan.kuppuswamy@linux.intel.com, alexander.shishkin@linux.intel.com, thomas.lendacky@amd.com, tglx@linutronix.de, dgilbert@redhat.com, gregkh@linuxfoundation.org, dinechin@redhat.com, linux-coco@lists.linux.dev, berrange@redhat.com, mst@redhat.com, tytso@mit.edu, jikos@kernel.org, joro@8bytes.org, leon@kernel.org, richard.weinberger@gmail.com, lukas@wunner.de, jejb@linux.ibm.com, cdupontd@redhat.com, jasowang@redhat.com, sameo@rivosinc.com, bp@alien8.de, security@kernel.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-doc@vger.kernel.org On Wed, Apr 26, 2023, Dave Hansen wrote: > On 4/25/23 08:02, Sean Christopherson wrote: > >> +While the traditional hypervisor has unlimited access to guest data and > >> +can leverage this access to attack the guest, the CoCo systems mitigate > >> +such attacks by adding security features like guest data confidentiality > >> +and integrity protection. This threat model assumes that those features > >> +are available and intact. > > Again, if you're claiming integrity is a key tenant, then SEV and SEV-ES can't be > > considered CoCo. > > This document is clearly trying to draw a line in the sand and say: > > CoCo on one side, non-CoCo on the other > > I think it's less important to name that line than it is to realize what > we need to do on one side versus the other. > > For instance, if the system doesn't have strong guest memory > confidentiality protection, then it's kinda silly to talk about the > guest's need to defend against "CoCo guest data attacks". > > Sure, the mitigations for "CoCo guest data attacks" are pretty sane even > without all this CoCo jazz. But if your goal is to mitigate damage that > a VMM out of the TCB can do, then they don't do much if there isn't > VMM->guest memory confidentiality in the first place. > > So, sure, CoCo implementations exist along a continuum. SGX is in there > (with and without integrity protection), as are SEV=>SEV-ES=>SEV and > MKTME=>TDX. > > This document is making the case that the kernel should go to some new > (and extraordinary) lengths to defend itself against ... something. Then name the document something other than confidential-computing.rst, e.g. tdx-and-snp-threat-model.rst. Because this doc isn't remotely close to achieving its stated goal of providing an "architecture-agnostic introduction ... to help developers gain a foundational understanding of the subject". IMO, it does more harm than good on that front because it presents Intel's and AMD's viewpoints as if they are widely accepted for all of CoCo, and that is just flagrantly false. : In order to effectively engage with the linux-coco mailing list and contribute : to ongoing kernel efforts, one must have a thorough familiarity with these : concepts. Add a concise, architecture-agnostic introduction and threat model : to provide a reference for ongoing design discussions and to help developers : gain a foundational understanding of the subject.