From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mout.gmx.net (mout.gmx.net [212.227.15.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DE5C381AEC; Sat, 5 Sep 2026 12:51:48 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=212.227.15.18 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1788612711; cv=none; b=X90w//2WipKo2TzOraBkF+ftOpDEg/9kVgAlkGSu5uXm0Kjs/BaTJdgI+2TVviiusH2ve+iF2YgAL8Wl0/wmtHSbA44fe24OGhIKPXGqiq3vkMQ4obKcUlBYD0GACPxu+UKGjlxGcEUs4OIaTT6iBs4h3KRRrxqpZcNMiqHhFXo= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1788612711; c=relaxed/simple; bh=fZBEpl+ftD9+WzMn7LRR2H0PLpgb46A/hgP4wZjNN3U=; h=Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References:From: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=RZTfPdb/FAmTvpx7gNl3e0HSHu1gh9Hv2QbR1yNysGkWDi5jSHsT8494M3AzIFx9lOT7pJEhFowxzFX0f/Noqs7XxL6/wKFv2ulnjdelXfL4jtLMcK/opdh2XsWQgmvnczm/d7RtZkFZaVotiq6NNJWUZwtOegAVhtdM6+ry22M= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=gmx.de; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmx.de; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmx.de header.i=w_armin@gmx.de header.b=BKObiniE; arc=none smtp.client-ip=212.227.15.18 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=gmx.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmx.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmx.de header.i=w_armin@gmx.de header.b="BKObiniE" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmx.de; s=s31663417; t=1788612702; x=1789217502; i=w_armin@gmx.de; bh=SHV1P6ptG7R+u23V4Ysb03oU0BEe7hpEAnj8gGM0pKY=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc: References:From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:cc:content-transfer-encoding: content-type:date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject: to; b=BKObiniEo5UitAMOSu3QaQsAx+3Kik/xrriU8w2g3COu/UO3pjWd7IiJdTCshJaE +NLvn01TtlabpcS9GV67xFFc/F0kMpaFRQWbYC+Mtlt0avlwvsDz2LE2U1wu7Cc9c YncobMeyPlaVIbFmy1hYAndzOPVF3SdycX8uDmdM3nO6C8RdB382IlKflO9tpMFIS UwuWNx6ZLAM89I6sO/I9GsvClKMX/eSr+v0+uYFthYErMIak/6QydFIZ9sKI66w+4 JHFX2jUFudtQk6+w1X+3iFP1PXv66R4axHR8wWwg2pX8VNDjNmzKdNYG4D0somJeN 7V08nNg3PeWXylhgXw== X-UI-Sender-Class: 724b4f7f-cbec-4199-ad4e-598c01a50d3a Received: from client.hidden.invalid by mail.gmx.net (mrgmx005 [212.227.17.190]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MfYPi-1wNASE0ZKq-00dntV; Sat, 05 Sep 2026 14:51:42 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2026 14:51:36 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-doc@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 0/2] driver core: add TAINT_FORCED_BIND for when userspace manually messes with devices and drivers To: Greg Kroah-Hartman Cc: Luis Chamberlain , Petr Pavlu , Daniel Gomez , Sami Tolvanen , Aaron Tomlin , Jonathan Corbet , Shuah Khan , Randy Dunlap , "Rafael J. Wysocki" , Danilo Krummrich , Steven Rostedt , Masami Hiramatsu , Mathieu Desnoyers , Bradley Morgan , Aleksandr Nogikh , linux-modules@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-usb@vger.kernel.org, driver-core@lists.linux.dev, linux-trace-kernel@vger.kernel.org, Johan Hovold References: <20260904-bind_taint-v3-0-30025465f38a@linuxfoundation.org> <9ac44f3f-1c67-4c37-aa72-255cec1578d2@gmx.de> <2026090546-skimming-bundle-0655@gregkh> Content-Language: en-US From: Armin Wolf In-Reply-To: <2026090546-skimming-bundle-0655@gregkh> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:1NWvXrOnyY4yTMWSXL+19xs600GcA51qQobbj7K0JkW6LBBPYb9 4u7awno/6zhMzp/1HZKbRNne5TbOBj1OpwIeZoHuxKbHNQTTSfY63fOfrjsmu0b4tJH9dqJ XTkx71nSpA1z9rqlcXhgNGBZrPJ0Hypb74JlACvwG4kcgM95KJH7DjPAcxN/QVcGMGlbqMR YNOlDAmC4DVNAbxj7PJuw== X-Spam-Flag: NO UI-OutboundReport: notjunk:1;M01:P0:dCtG4xomR7o=;P8RWS2bItmyPlVeLrQxkyu3EZQS 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4vM+2N13+tM0FElhqSNBiBbiGsw3qxbMAsyfbr7t5zBZLiO+7GGt1cxNKB5rRh0C25Wx6Aabe zK9Aic5/IovLUCu4+HBxfaIzsWTL8cqbBxkzRo+I9aeOA0x0h1NKH4G9PMy1J3VcsNnuW0BoV xeQ8GcEZh8g6FkMM9PsquVX1Cxs4j5tNVH4KUhGO+sULUtkZ/coaEJIxthSlP8pwrBL1UKGU+ 2O86a3kSHwMgXB6tBbVHXd37VSJSHsrIXLYQh+ykGQSEcuwwsdVm3LatL3KdXJxLoT2rK45Ox QqkAPXo0Hof+sxUqXRKo4uj8F5PGK1VtKFwoezox3ewLpTwEPzlv7oLcwg4G8IV4UL4TTdYOA HUkK8FPwc5ZKyMwI3quOpoDGiwxXsnnazFk2+xybyg1x80EJQArtkzQAf25LHIUjr/zilrafr jxK0l0i6/CPyCG/HWji+6YiqFaVU5drahQHPQsXKAhUuAghfqv5SXSeoBeNtJPH2pk5/tJAwZ /UQ2OhbsboNT3QPPCJOxTq8l4TSGUcqc2OZjX19R/g0i+lVOoHhCHgqf6hDK3MH2HPQAp8bPB 70h9VOlb9e98LWzajPexpTPuWnx+mTAw5/blHuLp55WTqmaBBQHrk9abEo/8LOR4x9CxGsMfP jn7mm1L9tsa2xPtFFm3aGCdR00VmyrSbmG1OMi59CNuelb3MLieXZT9e6JYoU8YT0= Am 05.09.26 um 13:27 schrieb Greg Kroah-Hartman: > On Fri, Sep 04, 2026 at 09:46:59PM +0200, Armin Wolf wrote: >> Am 04.09.26 um 07:10 schrieb Greg Kroah-Hartman: >>> The ability to add and remove devices from a driver through the sysfs >>> "bind" and "unbind" files was created all those decades ago as a way >>> that kernel developers can iterate faster, and provide a debugging way >>> for users to attempt to add a new device to a driver without having to >>> rebuild their kernel. >>> >>> This api over the years has been abused and recently come under a major >>> fuzzing "attack" through tools like syzbot which decided that it would >>> attempt to just randomly bind any driver to any type of device, causing >>> loads of unneeded errors and pointless kernel patches to be generated by >>> unsuspecting new developers. >>> >>> Handle all of this by adding a new taint flag, TAINT_FORCED_BIND, which >>> will be set on the driver if the bind/unbind sysfs files are ever >>> written to. This lets kernel developers "know" that a user is >>> attempting to do something that is not normal, and as such, if the >>> kernel breaks they get to keep the shiny pieces laying around on the >>> floor. >>> >>> The flag is 'Y' which was unused, and can remembered as the user is >>> "yeeting" the device being operated on here (thrown with force without >>> regard for the thing being thrown). >>> >>> Note, the taint flag gets set _BEFORE_ the bind/unbind callback happens, >>> as many times crashes/oops/warnings/failures happen within the callback, >>> and the taint flag needs to be there to show what was being attempted. >>> If it were to be set after the callback happens, the oops report would >>> not properly reflect what foolishness was being attempted. >>> >>> Fuzzing tools like syzbot, that doesn't have hand-crafted rules to keep >>> the tool from hitting bind/unbind, should be run with panic_on_taint >>> enabled so that they fall over and don't continue on, thinking that they >>> actually found a real issue. >>> >>> Userspace operations that rely on the bind/unbind files to work around >>> the lack of will to upgrade a kernel image to a newer version with >>> proper support for new devices, or the lack of will to submit valid >>> device ids to driver authors, will still work properly, but now the >>> kernel will be flagged in a way that will show that perhaps those users >>> should reconsider their behavior and work to have the drivers properly >>> support these devices in a "native" manner. >> What about users that use driver_override together with vfio-pci? AFAIK >> they still need to write to bind/unbind. > As I state above, that is an abuse of this api. > >> Also i always liked the fact that the bind/unbind attributes make it very >> easy in creating generic drivers. In fact, i am intending to use this feature >> in order to add netlink support to the ACPI-WMI subsystem in the future. >> I am planning to realize this thru a generic WMI driver that has to be manually >> bound to a given WMI device to make it available over netlink, so having >> users be able to write bind/unbind without potentially triggering a kernel panic >> would be very nice. > It's a taint flag being set, not a panic, showing developers that "hey, > the user just did something odd here, ask them about it when handling > this bug report." >> Additionally, writing into the bind attribute still checks if the driver and the >> device match: >> >> /* >> * Manually attach a device to a driver. >> * Note: the driver must want to bind to the device, >> * it is not possible to override the driver's id table. >> */ >> static ssize_t bind_store(struct device_driver *drv, const char *buf, size_t count) >> >> Because of this i would suggest that the taint (if at all) be added to the >> driver_override attribute instead, because only with this attribute users can bind >> random drivers to truly random devices. > I had thought of that, but the force removal of drivers from devices > wouldn't show up this way, which is one of the things that we do want to > warn developers about. IMHO drivers that do not support this should rather just set suppress_bind_attrs. And drivers for busses that do support hotplugging must support surprise removal anyway. Would it be possible to only taint the kernel if the underlying bus does not claim to be hotplugable? > And, if we just did the driver_override taint, it would allow those > drivers who claim to be "generic" like you are referring to, to keep > "getting away with that" when it's obviously not true that they can > handle any device for that bus, otherwise it would have automatically > bound to it already (and no manual intervention would be needed.) > > By keeping the manual configuration of bind, you are forcing userspace > to manually do work, while still a possible thing to do, now at least a > developer who gets a bug report will _know_ it happened, which is why > the taint flag is there. > > Does that make a bit more sense? How are users supposed to select between multiple drivers for the same device if all those drivers claim to support said device? Assuming i have a generic driver and a more specialized driver that both claim support for the same device. How can i control which one is ultimately bound to the device without using bind/unbind? How to utilize driver_override when another driver is already bound to the device without using the unbind attribute? Also drivers that claim to be generic while obviously not being able to handle all devices are themselves broken, not the surrounding mechanism that relies on the data being supplied by the broken drivers. Maybe we should instead fix those drivers to stop claiming to be generic? Do you know the names of some drivers that are affected by this? Thanks, Armin Wolf > thanks, > > greg k-h