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Fri, 7 Jun 2024 10:47:50 +0000 Received: from MN6PR11MB8102.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::15b2:ee05:2ae7:cfd6]) by MN6PR11MB8102.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::15b2:ee05:2ae7:cfd6%6]) with mapi id 15.20.7633.036; Fri, 7 Jun 2024 10:47:49 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 12:47:41 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH 0/8] Introduce fwctl subystem To: Jason Gunthorpe , Dan Williams CC: Jakub Kicinski , David Ahern , Jonathan Corbet , Itay Avraham , "Leon Romanovsky" , , , , Paolo Abeni , Saeed Mahameed , Tariq Toukan , Andy Gospodarek , "Aron Silverton" , Christoph Hellwig , Jiri Pirko , Leonid Bloch , Leon Romanovsky , , References: <0-v1-9912f1a11620+2a-fwctl_jgg@nvidia.com> <20240603114250.5325279c@kernel.org> <214d7d82-0916-4c29-9012-04590e77df73@kernel.org> <20240604070451.79cfb280@kernel.org> <665fa9c9e69de_4a4e62941e@dwillia2-xfh.jf.intel.com.notmuch> <20240605135911.GT19897@nvidia.com> <6661416ed4334_2d412294a1@dwillia2-mobl3.amr.corp.intel.com.notmuch> <20240606144102.GB19897@nvidia.com> <6661f0dead72_2d412294ec@dwillia2-mobl3.amr.corp.intel.com.notmuch> <20240607002536.GI19897@nvidia.com> From: Przemek Kitszel Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <20240607002536.GI19897@nvidia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; 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X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?ZnpaMXdKdGJrODRsYTlXMmdhdEFDd0M3bDFKWUdoNnp4dy9ZVXpQT1BIYlQ1?= =?utf-8?B?UllaWk5JMFJhVTd1cEhCTG5CQ2hnZkZUN0l0MmVhWEFCdDNSWTQrVWdvMGRE?= =?utf-8?B?OUtpZ2JKbHdKYklUc0dhaTEzdHBxeTF1OVNlT1gzSTBPaGdYci9UUUIwR00w?= =?utf-8?B?TXhkLzVEbVZhMmhJY3lJekNHcVRDUCttL1dwZG1YT3ZnemNYZW9YbCtiUTY0?= =?utf-8?B?TEIwTnNkL2l1b09YcVkxR29lbTRoS0N1ZlJIc2svVEQ4R0YwZkhxcFBnajFh?= =?utf-8?B?cnBTcEdSd2xJKys3SjNTNitLbHVYeTQrVjRQQXJYcnFPaEprTWpLZnNVbmlN?= =?utf-8?B?d25sUStCbFdvOHNaZ0FtOEZZRjlGSVRzN3UyNFJ2citpMTFsRU5TTkhzbExs?= =?utf-8?B?b1VmRG9HTTVZcnVxanYyTTJVRTc5UW1tbCtyM1FtZnhieWRRVjZDcm5UYUUv?= =?utf-8?B?Z2NBMXJ1VXY0OExLOEJQeHdVeFBqUEVEVEsrVWZSVEswNkhxY3BReWhHSnlY?= =?utf-8?B?NVJFRHMwQ2V6VWRIdjhmN0QvRnhZY3NudHpMb2dXNjVwQVcxeTJQenlJZGcr?= =?utf-8?B?YjM0SXZpeEhVZzJlSVFqbkRjOWhkWmZkVTRuNVBjU1k4VkxsbUJJVmVFUk9l?= =?utf-8?B?amRvaTgxOUZtMHdTVlBnaEV0V0hFNEZKa1FVcW9uanNBeTRGbGFPTEpwMTFN?= =?utf-8?B?L1dWYzBVU0J4RDB1eXFVYXlqbnpkR2xpck04Z2pDYWZrVnFjM1VaOVpnMXNY?= =?utf-8?B?ZVY2VjFhZ3lYOXNJTjl0QzZUSDhEb1hoQ1pqR20zTFd5M1J4eFdxUHhHVmY0?= =?utf-8?B?N3owb2t3WVI4Q3pjQ0F3VFJIaVlQZ3IwQzNock95SkJ5MVR1RGp6QkpJdEl1?= =?utf-8?B?T3VFWmNmd1B1ZWZ1YW0xZHJwaHZtR0dhT1pXRVF3cFFzYXc1TDgvVkFGUzda?= =?utf-8?B?ZFZQckI1ZUllN0RjUUFtZE5IT0pWVW9MUmttT3laSzJ3ZVk0MlRjY3FhVVIz?= =?utf-8?B?c28vRXFGWWVUOXpxTGxYMjVkUXhZY0srMlVuekh0aDRaejJrc3RMcVRRbmZ2?= =?utf-8?B?RVFRdUc0UlVGdllTZFRkSmlqdGc1cWZVRFJPNUhJR0R4N2tBRTNLVDRQdTl4?= =?utf-8?B?OVBKYkpTREdwWXNwQ25ZNEtVcnRTeERJUGhSNzNxM2h6cXdpdVliaERSS0JW?= =?utf-8?B?YXJLWE9ZVEo3WERsSkRQZVdSdlJHWTJGSG1LRzB1NHZLMStGUWhWY2V4aHRW?= =?utf-8?B?WHo4b2NmUEU0cCtETnp3QzZVZVVqOU1QMi9ZV1ZDR3VUL1A5WUxtOC9pYnEw?= =?utf-8?B?MU1JM3NxanovRDJBNW9XRmlHaFdkM3ltMktoNW9Udk9GRDdIV0p6MXg4Mis5?= =?utf-8?B?TDlwQndwQU15VTUwREJFVFBMaDN5c0k0S3JaU1ZlWE9lVE9pNzJGWnRxWGs1?= =?utf-8?B?NWZQKzVzOG40TUJtd1BtOGtpS0xyOGRMbDNwM2RQZ3gyTDhaSDlDaStoUkcw?= =?utf-8?B?Ri9hTmZZblN5alk1NVhwVGplUHI1amVkTytNV1NHUkw0TjY4ZWNnTkc2Z1pu?= =?utf-8?B?TlIyU0VEVnhQUWt3TnRqU1JLdnpqcElIeXhIdXRON2xGTFJ3dTFwNG12K0Jq?= =?utf-8?B?WHVDMWNremp5L0VaZ3lKV3hmTSt2QUpUNlJReU5OcEc1Vm9USDAvd09tU0JX?= =?utf-8?B?S2lIeUZXNE9UZVk5ZEJTV3F3VW1rSFZrUFRXaFdnditvTnpzYTBhVlA2QTg5?= =?utf-8?B?R0FGRGVuOExCM3RWQmE3ZVBwVGJZYzdXaWdkWmNtNVY0Ti8vcEpGK0Z4TlVH?= =?utf-8?B?WW01TjNxOHZwZmRENE5pYlYzZ29QeWYvNURXd0VGaVh0UFlTUkdBY0U2OTZa?= =?utf-8?B?Q0xGYjFiYmhOODlVZG8vT00zMncyMzFBUWJDbmx2RDNmS1lER1dzU2pud1Zx?= =?utf-8?B?TFNBUlYxYnB3OUJoY3N4azhJaURLVmFVdkcwbUNZRkYwaGlHMndNczJONXFv?= =?utf-8?B?UC9VL1A1NGloL0JEc0ZUcW56UG9mKy83dmN4Qm81TEF5SGhWUzZKb1I2bHFn?= =?utf-8?B?SUIxdGwxOWZtd3J6WVFiU1hIa2I1U0FWYjFOZ0pWa3V0cDFRQWI0ZnczSlVR?= =?utf-8?B?YXkvTVR0dlBFV1JPTDR2TnR0eVp5SG56VW9wU2w1RXIzRlFSZmw4ZHBVZlFH?= =?utf-8?B?cVE9PQ==?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e8c13252-c107-4417-67d4-08dc86df4669 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: MN6PR11MB8102.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Jun 2024 10:47:49.8205 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 46c98d88-e344-4ed4-8496-4ed7712e255d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: Bc91X86NRAnLH170mxBFrlbDSAJH0rDfDdcF9WEtjSEMq2Tmp5ivVkhMQ8PrU62NEtss8sQY7YD33AQpIinJaURoVmUgE9XvLp8K1JlL1e8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DM6PR11MB4689 X-OriginatorOrg: intel.com On 6/7/24 02:25, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > On Thu, Jun 06, 2024 at 10:24:46AM -0700, Dan Williams wrote: >> Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >> [..] >>>> I am warming to your assertion that there is a wide array of >>>> vendor-specific configuration and debug that are not an efficient use of >>>> upstream's time to wrap in a shared Linux ABI. I want to explore fwctl >>>> for CXL for that use case, I personally don't want to marshal a Linux >>>> command to each vendor's slightly different backend CXL toggles. >>> >>> Personally I think this idea to marshal/unmarshal everything in the >>> kernel is often misguided. If it is truely obvious and actually shared >>> multi-vendor capability then by all means go and do it. >>> >>> But if you are spending weeks/months fighting about uAPI because all >>> the vendors are so different, it isn't obvious what is "generic" then >>> you've probably already lost. The very worst outcome is a per-device >>> uAPI masquerading as an obfuscated "generic" uAPI that wasted ages of >>> peoples time to argue out. >> >> Certainly once you have gotten to the "months of arguing" point it begs the >> question "was there really any generic benefit to reap in the first >> place?" > > Indeed, but I've seen, and participated, in these things many times :) > >> That said, *some* grappling, especially when muliple vendors hit the >> list with the similar feature at the same time, has yielded >> collaboration in the past. > > Absolutely! But we have also frequently done that retroactively, like > see three examples and then consolidate the common APIs. The challenge > is uAPI. Since we can't change uAPI people like to rush to make it > future proof without examples. Broadly I lean towards waiting until we > have several examples to build a standard uAPI and let the examples > evolve on their own. > > If there is value in the commonality then people will change over. what has changed over decades is that now Linux has much more users than implementations of given tool I would love to see a move of the uAPI barrier closer to the user, we will be free to refactor kernel APIs, given "the system tool" will be updated at the same time. Obviously for a new uAPI that would (re)move the promise on the very beginning.