From: Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>
To: Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@redhat.com>
Cc: Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>, Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>,
Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>,
Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de>,
kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
mtk.manpages@gmail.com, rdunlap@xenotime.net,
linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 13:52:09 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <200908251352.11959.rob@landley.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <4A92F6FC.4060907@redhat.com>
On Monday 24 August 2009 15:24:28 Ric Wheeler wrote:
> Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Actually, ext2 should be able to survive that, no? Error writing ->
> > remount ro -> fsck on next boot -> drive relocates the sectors.
>
> I think that the example and the response are both off base. If your
> head ever touches the platter, you won't be reading from a huge part of
> your drive ever again
It's not quite that simple anymore.
These days, most modern drives add an "overcoat", which is a vapor deposition
layer of carbon (I.E. diamond) on top of the magnetic media, and then add a
nanolayer of some kind of nonmagnetic lubricant on top of that. That protects
the magnetic layer from physical contact with the head; it takes a pretty
solid whack to chip through diamond and actually gouge your disk:
http://www.datarecoverylink.com/understanding_magnetic_media.html
You can also do fun things with various nitridies (carbon nitride, silicon
nitride, titanium nitride) which are pretty darn tough too, although I dunno
about their suitability to hard drives:
http://www.physical-vapor-deposition.com/
So while it _is_ possible to whack your drive and scratch the platter, merely
"touching" won't do it. (Laptops wouldn't be feasible if they couldn't cope
with a little jostling while running.) In the case of repeated small whacks,
your heads may actually go first. (I vaguely recall the little aerofoil wing
thingy holding up the disk touches first, and can get ground down by repeated
contact with the diamond layer (despite the lubricant, that just buys time) so
it gets shorter and shorter and can't reliably keep the head above the disk
rather than in contact with it. But I'm kind of stale myself here, not sure
that's still current.)
Here's a nice youtube video of a 2007 defcon talk from a hard drive recovery
professional, "What's that Clicking Noise", series starts here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCapEFNZAJ0
And here's that guy's web page:
http://www.myharddrivedied.com/presentations/index.html
Rob
--
Latency is more important than throughput. It's that simple. - Linus Torvalds
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-08-25 18:52 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 269+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-03-12 9:21 ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 11:40 ` Jochen Voß
2009-03-21 11:24 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 19:13 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-16 12:28 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:26 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-23 10:45 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-30 15:06 ` Goswin von Brederlow
[not found] ` <20090824093143.GD25591@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-24 11:19 ` [patch] " Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:01 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 14:55 ` Artem Bityutskiy
2009-08-24 22:30 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 19:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 20:24 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 20:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 21:08 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 21:25 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:05 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 22:22 ` Zan Lynx
2009-08-24 22:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 0:34 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 23:42 ` david
2009-08-24 22:41 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:39 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 23:00 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090824230036.GK29763@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-25 0:02 ` david
2009-08-25 9:32 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 0:06 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 9:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 15:34 ` david
2009-08-26 3:32 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:17 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:29 ` david
2009-08-26 13:10 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 13:43 ` david
2009-08-26 18:02 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 6:28 ` Eric Sandeen
2009-11-09 8:53 ` periodic fsck was " Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20091109085318.GE4818@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-11-09 14:05 ` Theodore Tso
2009-11-09 15:58 ` Andreas Dilger
2009-08-30 7:03 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:28 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 6:06 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 6:54 ` david
2009-08-27 7:34 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-28 14:37 ` david
2009-08-30 7:19 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:48 ` david
2009-08-27 5:27 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 0:08 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25 9:42 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090825094244.GC15563@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-25 13:37 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 13:42 ` Alan Cox
2009-08-27 3:16 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:15 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:42 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 22:51 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03 ` david
2009-08-25 23:29 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:26 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:40 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:48 ` david
2009-08-25 23:53 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:11 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:16 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:31 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:00 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 1:15 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:16 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 2:53 ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
[not found] ` <20090826011605.GS4300@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-26 2:55 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:37 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A948C94.7040103@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 2:58 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 10:39 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A9510D2.1090704@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 11:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:28 ` david
2009-08-29 9:49 ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:28 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 20:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 20:42 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 23:00 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 23:09 ` david
2009-09-03 8:55 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 0:36 ` jim owens
2009-09-03 2:41 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:14 ` jim owens
2009-09-04 7:44 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-04 11:49 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 10:28 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 12:20 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 13:54 ` Jonathan Corbet
2009-09-05 21:27 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 21:56 ` Theodore Tso
2009-09-02 22:45 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 22:49 ` [PATCH] Update Documentation/md.txt to mention journaling won't help dirty+degraded case Rob Landley
2009-09-03 9:08 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 12:05 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 12:31 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:35 ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-30 7:07 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:01 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:23 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 7:01 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 5:19 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 12:24 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 13:10 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A9685D4.2070906@redhat.com>
2009-08-27 16:54 ` MD/DM and barriers (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Jeff Garzik
2009-08-27 18:09 ` Alasdair G Kergon
2009-09-01 14:01 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 16:17 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-29 10:02 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 9:47 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 3:50 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-27 3:53 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 11:43 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 20:51 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 22:00 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 14:49 ` david
2009-08-29 10:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 20:22 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-29 21:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 16:56 ` what fsck can (and can't) do was " david
2009-09-03 19:27 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 22:13 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 1:32 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 6:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 7:31 ` NeilBrown
2009-11-09 10:50 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 11:16 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-01 13:58 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 7:11 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret Florian Weimer
2009-08-28 7:23 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28 12:08 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 7:51 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090830075135.GA1874@ucw.cz>
2009-08-30 9:01 ` Christian Kujau
2009-09-02 20:55 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:55 ` david
2009-08-30 14:12 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 14:44 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-30 16:10 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 16:35 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:15 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 13:16 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:19 ` Mark Lord
2009-08-31 13:21 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 15:14 ` jim owens
2009-09-03 1:59 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 11:12 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 11:18 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:34 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 13:50 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:59 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 14:15 ` wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 14:26 ` Florian Weimer
2009-09-03 15:09 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 23:50 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-04 0:39 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-04 21:21 ` Mark Lord
2009-09-04 21:29 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 12:57 ` Mark Lord
2009-09-05 13:40 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 21:43 ` NeilBrown
2009-09-07 11:45 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-07 13:10 ` Theodore Tso
2010-04-04 13:47 ` fsck more often when powerfail is detected (was Re: wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage) Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 17:39 ` tytso
2010-04-04 17:59 ` Rob Landley
2010-04-04 18:45 ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 19:35 ` tytso
2010-04-04 19:29 ` tytso
2010-04-04 23:58 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:35 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-31 13:22 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 15:50 ` david
2009-08-31 16:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 18:31 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 19:11 ` david
2009-08-30 15:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 15:20 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-31 17:49 ` Jesse Brandeburg
[not found] ` <4807377b0908311049id9a2167r937bc8447c2b3546@mail.gmail.com>
2009-08-31 18:01 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 21:01 ` MD5/6? (was Re: raid is dangerous but that's secret ...) Ron Johnson
2009-08-31 18:07 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) martin f krafft
2009-08-31 22:26 ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 23:19 ` Ron Johnson
2009-09-01 5:45 ` martin f krafft
2009-09-05 10:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:46 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible david
2009-08-25 23:08 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:08 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:15 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 3:29 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 16:11 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25 22:21 ` [patch] document flash/RAID dangers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:33 ` david
2009-08-25 22:40 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:59 ` david
2009-08-25 23:37 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:48 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:06 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:12 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:20 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:26 ` david
2009-08-26 0:28 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:38 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:45 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:21 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:58 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:40 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:11 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A95349E.7010101@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 13:44 ` david
2009-08-29 9:38 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:24 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:22 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 14:45 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-29 9:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:47 ` Ron Johnson
2009-08-29 16:12 ` jim owens
2009-08-25 23:56 ` david
2009-08-26 0:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:20 ` david
2009-08-26 0:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 1:17 ` david
2009-08-26 0:26 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:50 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:19 ` david
2009-08-26 11:25 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:37 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 6:49 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:20 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 22:27 ` [patch] document that ext2 can't handle barriers Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 3:34 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Rob Landley
2009-08-27 8:46 ` David Woodhouse
2009-08-28 14:46 ` david
2009-08-29 10:09 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:27 ` david
2009-08-29 21:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:58 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:10 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:32 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-24 21:11 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-25 20:56 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:08 ` david
2009-08-25 18:52 ` Rob Landley [this message]
2009-08-25 14:43 ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:50 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 18:48 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 13:21 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 18:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:28 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-26 1:34 ` david
2009-08-24 21:11 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 21:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 18:45 ` Jan Kara
2009-03-16 12:30 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:03 ` Theodore Tso
2009-03-23 18:23 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:40 ` Sitsofe Wheeler
2009-03-16 21:43 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-17 4:55 ` Kyle Moffett
2009-03-23 11:00 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 1:33 ` Robert Hancock
2009-08-29 13:04 ` Alan Cox
2009-03-16 19:45 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 21:48 ` Pavel Machek
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