From: Rik van Riel <riel@redhat.com>
To: Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>
Cc: david@lang.hm, Theodore Tso <tytso@mit.edu>,
Ric Wheeler <rwheeler@redhat.com>,
Florian Weimer <fweimer@bfk.de>,
Goswin von Brederlow <goswin-v-b@web.de>,
Rob Landley <rob@landley.net>,
kernel list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@osdl.org>,
mtk.manpages@gmail.com, rdunlap@xenotime.net,
linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
corbet@lwn.net
Subject: Re: [patch] document flash/RAID dangers
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 2009 00:20:58 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <4A94B82A.30905@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20090825224004.GD4300@elf.ucw.cz>
Pavel Machek wrote:
> Lets say you are writing to the (healthy) RAID5 and have a powerfail.
>
> So now data blocks do not correspond to the parity block. You don't
> yet have the corruption, but you already have a problem.
>
> If you get a disk failing at this point, you'll get corruption.
Not necessarily. Say you wrote out the entire stripe
in a 5 disk RAID 5 array, but only 3 data blocks and
the parity block got written out before power failure.
If the disk with the 4th (unwritten) data block were
to fail and get taken out of the RAID 5 array, the
degradation of the array could actually undo your data
corruption.
With RAID 5 and incomplete writes, you just don't know.
This kind of thing could go wrong at any level in the
system, with any kind of RAID 5 setup.
Of course, on a single disk system without RAID you can
still get incomplete writes, for the exact same reasons.
RAID 5 does not make things worse. It will protect your
data against certain failure modes, but not against others.
With or without RAID, you still need to make backups.
--
All rights reversed.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2009-08-26 4:21 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 269+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2009-03-12 9:21 ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 11:40 ` Jochen Voß
2009-03-21 11:24 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-12 19:13 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-16 12:28 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:26 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-23 10:45 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-30 15:06 ` Goswin von Brederlow
[not found] ` <20090824093143.GD25591@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-24 11:19 ` [patch] " Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:01 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 14:55 ` Artem Bityutskiy
2009-08-24 22:30 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 19:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 20:24 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 20:52 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 21:08 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 21:25 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:05 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 22:22 ` Zan Lynx
2009-08-24 22:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 0:34 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-24 23:42 ` david
2009-08-24 22:41 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 22:39 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 23:00 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090824230036.GK29763@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-25 0:02 ` david
2009-08-25 9:32 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 0:06 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 9:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 15:34 ` david
2009-08-26 3:32 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:17 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:29 ` david
2009-08-26 13:10 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 13:43 ` david
2009-08-26 18:02 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 6:28 ` Eric Sandeen
2009-11-09 8:53 ` periodic fsck was " Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20091109085318.GE4818@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-11-09 14:05 ` Theodore Tso
2009-11-09 15:58 ` Andreas Dilger
2009-08-30 7:03 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:28 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 6:06 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 6:54 ` david
2009-08-27 7:34 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-28 14:37 ` david
2009-08-30 7:19 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:48 ` david
2009-08-27 5:27 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 0:08 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25 9:42 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090825094244.GC15563@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-25 13:37 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 13:42 ` Alan Cox
2009-08-27 3:16 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:15 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:42 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 22:51 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03 ` david
2009-08-25 23:29 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:03 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:26 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:40 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:48 ` david
2009-08-25 23:53 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:11 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:16 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:31 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:00 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 1:15 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:16 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 2:53 ` Henrique de Moraes Holschuh
[not found] ` <20090826011605.GS4300@elf.ucw.cz>
2009-08-26 2:55 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:37 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A948C94.7040103@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 2:58 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 10:39 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A9510D2.1090704@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 11:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:28 ` david
2009-08-29 9:49 ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:28 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 20:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 20:42 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-02 23:00 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 23:09 ` david
2009-09-03 8:55 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 0:36 ` jim owens
2009-09-03 2:41 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:14 ` jim owens
2009-09-04 7:44 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-04 11:49 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 10:28 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 12:20 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 13:54 ` Jonathan Corbet
2009-09-05 21:27 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-05 21:56 ` Theodore Tso
2009-09-02 22:45 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-02 22:49 ` [PATCH] Update Documentation/md.txt to mention journaling won't help dirty+degraded case Rob Landley
2009-09-03 9:08 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 12:05 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 12:31 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:35 ` [testcase] test your fs/storage stack (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-30 7:07 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:01 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:23 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 7:01 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 5:19 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 12:24 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 13:10 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A9685D4.2070906@redhat.com>
2009-08-27 16:54 ` MD/DM and barriers (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Jeff Garzik
2009-08-27 18:09 ` Alasdair G Kergon
2009-09-01 14:01 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-02 16:17 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-29 10:02 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 9:47 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 3:50 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-27 3:53 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 11:43 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-27 20:51 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-27 22:00 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 14:49 ` david
2009-08-29 10:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 20:22 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-29 21:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-03 16:56 ` what fsck can (and can't) do was " david
2009-09-03 19:27 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-27 22:13 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 1:32 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-28 6:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 7:31 ` NeilBrown
2009-11-09 10:50 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 11:16 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-01 13:58 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-28 7:11 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret Florian Weimer
2009-08-28 7:23 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-28 12:08 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 7:51 ` Pavel Machek
[not found] ` <20090830075135.GA1874@ucw.cz>
2009-08-30 9:01 ` Christian Kujau
2009-09-02 20:55 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 12:55 ` david
2009-08-30 14:12 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 14:44 ` Michael Tokarev
2009-08-30 16:10 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-30 16:35 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:15 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 13:16 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 13:19 ` Mark Lord
2009-08-31 13:21 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 15:14 ` jim owens
2009-09-03 1:59 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 11:12 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 11:18 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:34 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 13:50 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 13:59 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-03 14:15 ` wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 14:26 ` Florian Weimer
2009-09-03 15:09 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-03 23:50 ` Krzysztof Halasa
2009-09-04 0:39 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-04 21:21 ` Mark Lord
2009-09-04 21:29 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 12:57 ` Mark Lord
2009-09-05 13:40 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-09-05 21:43 ` NeilBrown
2009-09-07 11:45 ` Pavel Machek
2009-09-07 13:10 ` Theodore Tso
2010-04-04 13:47 ` fsck more often when powerfail is detected (was Re: wishful thinking about atomic, multi-sector or full MD stripe width, writes in storage) Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 17:39 ` tytso
2010-04-04 17:59 ` Rob Landley
2010-04-04 18:45 ` Pavel Machek
2010-04-04 19:35 ` tytso
2010-04-04 19:29 ` tytso
2010-04-04 23:58 ` Rob Landley
2009-09-03 14:35 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) david
2009-08-31 13:22 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 15:50 ` david
2009-08-31 16:21 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 18:31 ` Christoph Hellwig
2009-08-31 19:11 ` david
2009-08-30 15:05 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-30 15:20 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-31 17:49 ` Jesse Brandeburg
[not found] ` <4807377b0908311049id9a2167r937bc8447c2b3546@mail.gmail.com>
2009-08-31 18:01 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-31 21:01 ` MD5/6? (was Re: raid is dangerous but that's secret ...) Ron Johnson
2009-08-31 18:07 ` raid is dangerous but that's secret (was Re: [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible) martin f krafft
2009-08-31 22:26 ` Jesse Brandeburg
2009-08-31 23:19 ` Ron Johnson
2009-09-01 5:45 ` martin f krafft
2009-09-05 10:34 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:46 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible david
2009-08-25 23:08 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:08 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:15 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 3:29 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-25 16:11 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-25 22:21 ` [patch] document flash/RAID dangers Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:33 ` david
2009-08-25 22:40 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:59 ` david
2009-08-25 23:37 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:48 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:06 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:12 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:20 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:26 ` david
2009-08-26 0:28 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:38 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:45 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 11:21 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 11:58 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 12:40 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-26 13:11 ` Ric Wheeler
[not found] ` <4A95349E.7010101@redhat.com>
2009-08-26 13:44 ` david
2009-08-29 9:38 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:24 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-26 11:22 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 14:45 ` Rik van Riel
2009-08-29 9:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 11:47 ` Ron Johnson
2009-08-29 16:12 ` jim owens
2009-08-25 23:56 ` david
2009-08-26 0:12 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:20 ` david
2009-08-26 0:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 1:17 ` david
2009-08-26 0:26 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 0:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 0:50 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-26 1:19 ` david
2009-08-26 11:25 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 12:37 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-30 6:49 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-26 4:20 ` Rik van Riel [this message]
2009-08-25 22:27 ` [patch] document that ext2 can't handle barriers Pavel Machek
2009-08-27 3:34 ` [patch] ext2/3: document conditions when reliable operation is possible Rob Landley
2009-08-27 8:46 ` David Woodhouse
2009-08-28 14:46 ` david
2009-08-29 10:09 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 16:27 ` david
2009-08-29 21:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 22:58 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-25 23:10 ` Ric Wheeler
2009-08-25 23:32 ` NeilBrown
2009-08-24 21:11 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-25 20:56 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 21:08 ` david
2009-08-25 18:52 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-25 14:43 ` Florian Weimer
2009-08-24 13:50 ` Theodore Tso
2009-08-24 18:48 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 18:39 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-24 13:21 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-08-24 18:44 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 23:28 ` Neil Brown
2009-08-26 1:34 ` david
2009-08-24 21:11 ` Rob Landley
2009-08-24 21:33 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-25 18:45 ` Jan Kara
2009-03-16 12:30 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:03 ` Theodore Tso
2009-03-23 18:23 ` Pavel Machek
2009-03-16 19:40 ` Sitsofe Wheeler
2009-03-16 21:43 ` Rob Landley
2009-03-17 4:55 ` Kyle Moffett
2009-03-23 11:00 ` Pavel Machek
2009-08-29 1:33 ` Robert Hancock
2009-08-29 13:04 ` Alan Cox
2009-03-16 19:45 ` Greg Freemyer
2009-03-16 21:48 ` Pavel Machek
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