From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-ot1-f45.google.com (mail-ot1-f45.google.com [209.85.210.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC18820E030 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 2026 00:15:59 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.210.45 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1775693761; cv=none; b=nn+rPi8Vww0mzElEoOueNZowYJ4nVc7ejAevxNe2UMtVBpYqk5cIUe8qVo674f3TWD0pbfxl17MfxgEQQEDXlmgAP7CBPG64P/rlZPkwvSpJbypR0vINbqFoUMnNS1kNgTendW/qv6jKv3iWiyWS+yw0ixB7V8Bnha6oTKd/O+8= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1775693761; c=relaxed/simple; bh=onvyvMxJh7UKD/t36rqIrGcDEfy6BFwtyVraUGbLzC4=; h=From:Message-ID:Date:MIME-Version:Subject:To:Cc:References: In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=eOtbynE+qrpEWNK7JR5mWPc2GVhxdu5uamZ8CUPQ6FxMPAUHlVUh1MtiLIof0/PMtPWWcIYlbWJuApJZLe7z7I5ovrdN9k1Lfh72/aCxzX467MHD/YYTo94cStgNqFnfFmTHs9AiEdxGfK5bFAXqJytdhIdMhTR6gwIblXKA1Ns= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=fbtDwk/I; arc=none smtp.client-ip=209.85.210.45 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="fbtDwk/I" Received: by mail-ot1-f45.google.com with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7d7f09aa39fso398996a34.0 for ; Wed, 08 Apr 2026 17:15:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20251104; t=1775693759; x=1776298559; darn=vger.kernel.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:content-language:references :cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:from:to :cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wnAEjEllCMkNmnU6SxzJLp3EKy3h7hXrnH8kOTYBGnw=; b=fbtDwk/IxNOpKEqIOrddrztrNq++y5ljLjWhFSGECECW1CPXYS9js5haAyXeLwSRAL lNddVB3ARVVbfK+qRcznAJ/3Wb9rB4KfQr+oRzcgNyNSgn3tbZzUtCmJvdBvSGqD/VNh wlVUGzo7FZ/VCALW4CrtIZeQCnT/WO0eFLJ3evGAkZn+1Np+K0wC4As79kZMYw0Pumxu Pf64mE/omFc2oZkQer7faPtCHsfxHNL762pdEcVtBh+Qc4DnBfgc02BKHeGZoQ0ClCPj 09FDTp38YJpTbop7qol/jthD8XI+5PJ2+tRcwTLSAyX5wJj34rcYmB0MoWzqpHjyAgMT L+mA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1775693759; x=1776298559; h=content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:content-language:references :cc:to:subject:user-agent:mime-version:date:message-id:from:x-gm-gg :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wnAEjEllCMkNmnU6SxzJLp3EKy3h7hXrnH8kOTYBGnw=; b=DG8hns+TPszn0pDNJ2h3XK5JsPD8ux+4zUQzN5PmZf6jECgOWIVwzAJGsbozJ+BS7e 2YqaUmClazynK0gDunpg99qoo+VqAlU3LTsxgGBc53cU7SD4aZ1USIhWtBOLIGMwFPiq fgIB0HemgKLKk6BPtAbPRHxUIa+WYTKMRxH9TrLMU0G9JtE4T2gXEzuTlQ/vR1ceFSJ5 dlDPpHpwvTKO7IB0OMJAUkwQ7DOLLdTL8eZGBj7k91/frVjSy67l+k1iPf1FD1YVTsV0 cRrughU8Ja1ZxYmLJ1npKbYdtu70FWvkiU8J+EN9pBd7PCznUPCozbbXlMt9d9CEDU8n DU4g== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVvBHfOh9ditA5XyHgfq7iLxijfXp+hLhkc6V7X0aDFSl6ZA7QrGc5DtU1DY+mLnzb9ItgVnNM148tr@vger.kernel.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywtk1UPpB3ADprdvsYw19DgMw/fKMBVQYGypbL1e3Gj7NGLMplZ ujLToVsWNfWq3JLsHQvhnNjXwx9PH4TNvD4V2ah2KXtbl35qibviGT35 X-Gm-Gg: AeBDiesk85jgb/YHw4Qj6WT13sf50QWDsiFKBtGK0zhK0VYUjcIcj7a3JaAVtYnYfFP xGkDJzICaGhENz2oF46G/94HfIUZOtKTvib63ZFeJFBzhE9TlIzGBFuEg/7RtNIHSuyxl1YYorY cFqVl5mx7XILnzgz09GNwr6pc/Fm7EJBmgCib9pRKZuB7RkHLup/VzaaSbY5SXFRmO8HwIh4xlP pIouN+2iKsxbYMS7uyNQacgE0MTwXrcbGbLrJYjUpUUzSjVWTEXP3pOqpn+gQ2ZByrd3Ux7B7KZ UMLJ92f8hKyAKXRuPNeZfjfpgbNKAmNilMwLPyUyVA+qI6dMLIbETorSFvW07n85JR9KiQ/LoBr YtRBveOa6LyZVecBgxqmwby9xJwHOvf/zb81uTk3Xmop+nxByjmiJIRH8h9pCGNj2Bw+46vlmSi qGdQCTeWRB8AZWTvT5dYZzd1DC/zlakPrTq90FKO6Ca41FdivOqhjW3WeMoue+ajW8a9azuwksf jCiY+lK X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:43a5:b0:7d7:b6f0:c609 with SMTP id 46e09a7af769-7dbb7289cfemr14631507a34.24.1775693758519; Wed, 08 Apr 2026 17:15:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.50.127] (c-73-5-99-191.hsd1.la.comcast.net. [73.5.99.191]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 46e09a7af769-7dba72fd409sm14997234a34.16.2026.04.08.17.15.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Apr 2026 17:15:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Smith X-Google-Original-From: Sean Smith Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2026 19:15:56 -0500 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v1 0/6] provenance_time (ptime): a new settable timestamp for cross-filesystem provenance To: Theodore Tso Cc: linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, dsterba@suse.com, david@fromorbit.com, brauner@kernel.org, osandov@osandov.com, hirofumi@mail.parknet.co.jp, linkinjeon@kernel.org References: <20260405225442.GA1763@macsyma-wired.lan> <20260407000558.417-1-DefendTheDisabled@gmail.com> <20260407233618.GB12536@macsyma-wired.lan> <92e61267-eb24-4f94-b9a1-e009b5e00d65@gmail.com> <20260408133324.GA18443@macsyma-wired.lan> Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: <20260408133324.GA18443@macsyma-wired.lan> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 4/8/2026 08:33, Theodore Tso wrote: > AI models which don't consider secord order effects (or used by people > who have different priorities than others) can result in... > suboptimal results.> > And this is why it's important why it's important to have humans in > the loop instead of blindly trusting AI models. > > I'd also suggest that you consider the value of patience. Linux is 35 > years old as of this writing. One of the reasons why Linux has stuck > around this long is because we take the long view. Sure, it might > take longer to shift the ecosystem to use some new interface or new > feature; but everyone will have to live with muddled interface > semantics *forever*. > MacOS doesn't have this Windows-style timestamp support, > and it hasn't stopped many users from switching from Windows > to MacOS. I think this thread demonstrates the value of humans in the loop. Despite my efforts to be careful, my earlier claim that "Windows, macOS, and SMB have supported a settable creation timestamp for decades — Linux is the outlier" was wrong. macOS doesn't preserve date created on copy either. Windows is now the outlier. Working with AI, it feels like drowning in information which no single individual has the time or ability to fully verify. Your years of experience caught what I and agents did not. >From the sound of it, the issues with rename() will block an upstream merge of a kernel-based ptime. I can maintain my kernel patch on GitHub for those that want it. The file_attr design work that came out of Darrick Wong's engagement was productive and worth doing despite this outcome. I see long-term value in our discussion. As agents become more involved in projects, this LKML thread will establish ptime as a solution to this specific problem. Someone migrating from Windows to Linux who asks their agents how to preserve date created are going to find this thread. The tools I used to build my kernel patch didn't exist six months ago. My AI harness is just as much a dependency, and it didn't exist three months ago. My harness undergoes rapid development and increases in capabilities, even without newer, smarter models releasing every few months. I think there's a real risk of a negative feedback loop. As implementation costs drop, people who could contribute to upstream will find it easier to build and maintain a custom stack rather than try to get changes through a multi-year review process. I think experienced developers need to lead a shift in how contributions are reviewed and organized. I think the key challenge for maintainers is figuring out how to work with a new class of contributor, and direct them so they work in a coordinated manner. Thanks for taking the time to engage with me. - Sean