From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.3 required=3.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIMWL_WL_HIGH, DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS,URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AB25C433DF for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:29:53 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E8A1322BEB for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:29:52 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="QXVqXVkm" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726236AbgH0Q3w (ORCPT ); Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:29:52 -0400 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com ([216.205.24.124]:41232 "EHLO us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726123AbgH0Q3w (ORCPT ); Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:29:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1598545790; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=p2rcfPP9LJoBdRqCmlyNha20vMAkLS8jXZnwZTw7m3o=; b=QXVqXVkm4/lPbAf5lvX5ApC8M1bPumBbIaIvfy1hFJQMTSDWSNWeIGvGAUnDRe+30O5wHw 5rCYMp5S3OhEuiFdJ/fxXSCBeOnRH3tS3/s5HFR8zhgzkuoGg/yRYIPbwknG4JY8J/LNsd pz6LmGuogkPYn4sjLoW0ZtikaOIZfgA= Received: from mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (mimecast-mx01.redhat.com [209.132.183.4]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-81-lyoX8VbUOzO22VU0E8YrJw-1; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 12:29:47 -0400 X-MC-Unique: lyoX8VbUOzO22VU0E8YrJw-1 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx01.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DE68873115; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:29:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from work-vm (ovpn-114-163.ams2.redhat.com [10.36.114.163]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A0AC757CB; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 16:29:37 +0000 (UTC) Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:29:35 +0100 From: "Dr. David Alan Gilbert" To: Al Viro Cc: Christian Schoenebeck , Matthew Wilcox , Miklos Szeredi , "Theodore Y. Ts'o" , Frank van der Linden , Dave Chinner , Greg Kurz , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Stefan Hajnoczi , Miklos Szeredi , Vivek Goyal , Giuseppe Scrivano , Daniel J Walsh , Chirantan Ekbote Subject: Re: file forks vs. xattr (was: xattr names for unprivileged stacking?) Message-ID: <20200827162935.GC2837@work-vm> References: <20200824222924.GF199705@mit.edu> <3331978.UQhOATu6MC@silver> <20200827140107.GH14765@casper.infradead.org> <159855515.fZZa9nWDzX@silver> <20200827144452.GA1236603@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200827144452.GA1236603@ZenIV.linux.org.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.6 (2020-07-11) X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.11 Sender: linux-fsdevel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org * Al Viro (viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk) wrote: > On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 04:23:24PM +0200, Christian Schoenebeck wrote: > > > Be invited for making better suggestions. But one thing please: don't start > > getting offending. > > > > No matter which delimiter you'd choose, something will break. It is just about > > how much will it break und how likely it'll be in practice, not if. > > ... which means NAK. We don't break userland without very good reasons and > support for anyone's pet feature is not one of those. It's as simple as > that. I'm curious how much people expect to use these forks from existing programs - do people expect to be able to do something and edit a fork using their favorite editor or cat/grep/etc them? I say that because if they do, then having a special syscall to open the fork wont fly; and while I agree that any form of suffix is a lost cause, I wonder what else is possible (although if it wasn't for the internal difficulties, I do have a soft spot for things that look like both files and directories showing the forks; but I realise I'm weird there). Dave > > If you are concerned about not breaking anything: keep forks disabled. > > s/disabled/out of tree/ > > One general note: the arguments along the lines of "don't enable that, > then" are either ignorant or actively dishonest; it really doesn't work > that way, as we'd learnt quite a few times by now. There's no such > thing as "optional feature" - *any* feature, no matter how useless, > might end up a dependency (no matter how needless) of something that > would force distros to enable it. We'd been down that road too many > times to keep pretending that it doesn't happen. > -- Dr. David Alan Gilbert / dgilbert@redhat.com / Manchester, UK