* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) [not found] <f188924b0807171213q43f10b09j47b34674fc8aaa38@mail.gmail.com> @ 2008-07-17 19:45 ` Jeff Garzik 2008-07-17 20:18 ` Evgeniy Polyakov 2008-07-20 10:57 ` Christoph Hellwig 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Jeff Garzik @ 2008-07-17 19:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fred .; +Cc: linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel Fred . wrote: > Previously we have not been able to have ZFS support due to it being > licensed under the CDDL and the kernel under the GPL. > > Sun have contributed ZFS support to GRUB under the GPL license. We > could now use that code to implement support for ZFS in the Linux > kernel. > > http://blogs.sun.com/darren/entry/zfs_under_gplv2_already_exists Linux needs btrfs upstream more than it needs ZFS... Jeff ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-17 19:45 ` Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) Jeff Garzik @ 2008-07-17 20:18 ` Evgeniy Polyakov 2008-07-20 10:57 ` Christoph Hellwig 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Evgeniy Polyakov @ 2008-07-17 20:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel Fred . wrote: >Sun have contributed ZFS support to GRUB under the GPL license. We >could now use that code to implement support for ZFS in the Linux >kernel. Why? -- Evgeniy Polyakov ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-17 19:45 ` Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) Jeff Garzik 2008-07-17 20:18 ` Evgeniy Polyakov @ 2008-07-20 10:57 ` Christoph Hellwig 2008-07-20 12:35 ` Kevin Winchester 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-20 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jeff Garzik; +Cc: Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 03:45:07PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: > Fred . wrote: >> Previously we have not been able to have ZFS support due to it being >> licensed under the CDDL and the kernel under the GPL. >> >> Sun have contributed ZFS support to GRUB under the GPL license. We >> could now use that code to implement support for ZFS in the Linux >> kernel. >> >> http://blogs.sun.com/darren/entry/zfs_under_gplv2_already_exists > > Linux needs btrfs upstream more than it needs ZFS... Don't be so harsh. Adding a read-only for the start zfs driver for Linux would be useful for various purposes. And adding read-only filesystems to Linux is really easy. So if Fred really cares about it I'd be very happy to mentor him implementing it. IT should be a very good learning exercise for him. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-20 10:57 ` Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-20 12:35 ` Kevin Winchester 2008-07-20 16:56 ` Dave Kleikamp 2008-07-21 7:28 ` Christoph Hellwig 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Kevin Winchester @ 2008-07-20 12:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Christoph Hellwig; +Cc: Jeff Garzik, Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 03:45:07PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: >> Fred . wrote: >>> Previously we have not been able to have ZFS support due to it being >>> licensed under the CDDL and the kernel under the GPL. >>> >>> Sun have contributed ZFS support to GRUB under the GPL license. We >>> could now use that code to implement support for ZFS in the Linux >>> kernel. >>> >>> http://blogs.sun.com/darren/entry/zfs_under_gplv2_already_exists >> >> Linux needs btrfs upstream more than it needs ZFS... > > Don't be so harsh. Adding a read-only for the start zfs driver for > Linux would be useful for various purposes. And adding read-only > filesystems to Linux is really easy. So if Fred really cares about it > I'd be very happy to mentor him implementing it. IT should be a very > good learning exercise for him. If Fred declines, is anyone free to take you up on the offer? I have no filesystem experience and almost no experience with kernel code in general, so I would not be anyone's first choice for a task like this. However, since it mainly appears to be an integration exercise (using the code from GRUB and making it work in linux), it might well be doable for me. As a bonus, being highly inexperienced, I have no expectations of doing anything correctly, and thus would not react badly to lots of criticism. So to summarize - if anyone else would like to undertake this work, they probably should. But if no one has the time/will, then I would be happy to give it a try. Thanks, -- Kevin Winchester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-20 12:35 ` Kevin Winchester @ 2008-07-20 16:56 ` Dave Kleikamp 2008-07-21 7:28 ` Christoph Hellwig 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Dave Kleikamp @ 2008-07-20 16:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kevin Winchester Cc: Christoph Hellwig, Jeff Garzik, Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel On Sun, 2008-07-20 at 09:35 -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: > As a bonus, being highly inexperienced, I have no > expectations of doing anything correctly, and thus would not react > badly to lots of criticism. That's definitely the right attitude to take. When I ported jfs to linux, I was completely new to Linux and open source, so tried to defer to the experienced developers whenever possible. Christoph was a terrific help, offering a lot of suggestions and patches. JFS is a much better file system because of his help. There have been others contributing code that have not taken criticism so well, and what started out as an offer of help turned into emotional arguments and personal attacks. This really hampers getting your code accepted into the kernel and your ability to work within the community. > So to summarize - if anyone else would like to undertake this work, > they probably should. But if no one has the time/will, then I would > be happy to give it a try. Thanks for offering. I don't know who else may be interested in this, but good luck and thanks to you or whoever takes this up. Thanks, Shaggy -- David Kleikamp IBM Linux Technology Center ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-20 12:35 ` Kevin Winchester 2008-07-20 16:56 ` Dave Kleikamp @ 2008-07-21 7:28 ` Christoph Hellwig 2008-07-21 11:39 ` Kevin Winchester 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-21 7:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kevin Winchester Cc: Christoph Hellwig, Jeff Garzik, Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:35:45AM -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: > If Fred declines, is anyone free to take you up on the offer? I have > no filesystem experience and almost no experience with kernel code in > general, so I would not be anyone's first choice for a task like this. > However, since it mainly appears to be an integration exercise (using > the code from GRUB and making it work in linux), it might well be > doable for me. As a bonus, being highly inexperienced, I have no > expectations of doing anything correctly, and thus would not react > badly to lots of criticism. > > So to summarize - if anyone else would like to undertake this work, > they probably should. But if no one has the time/will, then I would > be happy to give it a try. Yes, this offer is of course up to everyone interested. But it's not purely an integration effort in the traditional sense, the grub filesystem interface is quite different from the Linux one, and the code structure and style is quite different. But if you're willing to learn it should be very interesting. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-21 7:28 ` Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-21 11:39 ` Kevin Winchester [not found] ` <f188924b0807210723v3a35de9fgc1565811a0597833@mail.gmail.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Kevin Winchester @ 2008-07-21 11:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Christoph Hellwig; +Cc: Jeff Garzik, Fred ., linux-kernel, linux-fsdevel On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:35:45AM -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: >> If Fred declines, is anyone free to take you up on the offer? I have >> no filesystem experience and almost no experience with kernel code in >> general, so I would not be anyone's first choice for a task like this. >> However, since it mainly appears to be an integration exercise (using >> the code from GRUB and making it work in linux), it might well be >> doable for me. As a bonus, being highly inexperienced, I have no >> expectations of doing anything correctly, and thus would not react >> badly to lots of criticism. >> >> So to summarize - if anyone else would like to undertake this work, >> they probably should. But if no one has the time/will, then I would >> be happy to give it a try. > > Yes, this offer is of course up to everyone interested. But it's not > purely an integration effort in the traditional sense, the grub > filesystem interface is quite different from the Linux one, and the code > structure and style is quite different. But if you're willing to learn > it should be very interesting. > No one else seems to have volunteered, so I would certainly like to give it a try. I guess I need to get the ZFS grub code, create a ZFS filesystem, and start looking around for information on linux filesystem development and ZFS (obviously without looking at any CDDL licensed code). Once I get a handle on that, I'll see where I can get before I need to ask a thousand questions. -- Kevin Winchester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <f188924b0807210723v3a35de9fgc1565811a0597833@mail.gmail.com>]
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) [not found] ` <f188924b0807210723v3a35de9fgc1565811a0597833@mail.gmail.com> @ 2008-07-21 14:40 ` Kevin Winchester 2008-07-21 14:50 ` Bernd Petrovitsch 2008-07-21 15:17 ` jim owens 0 siblings, 2 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Kevin Winchester @ 2008-07-21 14:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fred . Cc: Christoph Hellwig, Jeff Garzik, Linux Kernel Mailing List, linux-fsdevel (Added back CCs) On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Fred . <eldmannen@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Kevin Winchester > <kjwinchester@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Christoph Hellwig <hch@infradead.org> wrote: >>> On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 09:35:45AM -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: >>>> If Fred declines, is anyone free to take you up on the offer? I have >>>> no filesystem experience and almost no experience with kernel code in >>>> general, so I would not be anyone's first choice for a task like this. >>>> However, since it mainly appears to be an integration exercise (using >>>> the code from GRUB and making it work in linux), it might well be >>>> doable for me. As a bonus, being highly inexperienced, I have no >>>> expectations of doing anything correctly, and thus would not react >>>> badly to lots of criticism. >>>> >>>> So to summarize - if anyone else would like to undertake this work, >>>> they probably should. But if no one has the time/will, then I would >>>> be happy to give it a try. >>> >>> Yes, this offer is of course up to everyone interested. But it's not >>> purely an integration effort in the traditional sense, the grub >>> filesystem interface is quite different from the Linux one, and the code >>> structure and style is quite different. But if you're willing to learn >>> it should be very interesting. >>> >> >> No one else seems to have volunteered, so I would certainly like to >> give it a try. I guess I need to get the ZFS grub code, create a ZFS >> filesystem, and start looking around for information on linux >> filesystem development and ZFS (obviously without looking at any CDDL >> licensed code). >> >> Once I get a handle on that, I'll see where I can get before I need to >> ask a thousand questions. >> > Code can be found here; > * http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/grub/grub-0.95/stage2/ > > But it may be covered by patents by Sun. So maybe not allowed make an > implementation. :( > Maybe you should consult SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) first or something. > I would have no idea of the legal implications here. Do I really need to get the lawyers involved just to use GPLv2 code from another project in linux? -- Kevin Winchester ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-21 14:40 ` Kevin Winchester @ 2008-07-21 14:50 ` Bernd Petrovitsch 2008-07-22 7:44 ` Christoph Hellwig 2008-07-21 15:17 ` jim owens 1 sibling, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Bernd Petrovitsch @ 2008-07-21 14:50 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Fred . Cc: Kevin Winchester, Christoph Hellwig, Jeff Garzik, Linux Kernel Mailing List, linux-fsdevel On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 11:40 -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: [....] > > But it may be covered by patents by Sun. So maybe not allowed make an > > implementation. :( > > Maybe you should consult SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) first or something. Since basically *you* wanted that feature in the first place (and for whatever reason do not even start to work on it), I would have assumed that *you* already checked out all implications - especially the legal ones. So which patents may be relevant IYHO? Bernd -- Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/ mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55 Embedded Linux Development and Services ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-21 14:50 ` Bernd Petrovitsch @ 2008-07-22 7:44 ` Christoph Hellwig 2008-07-22 8:15 ` Bernd Petrovitsch 0 siblings, 1 reply; 12+ messages in thread From: Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-22 7:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Bernd Petrovitsch Cc: Fred ., Kevin Winchester, Christoph Hellwig, Jeff Garzik, Linux Kernel Mailing List, linux-fsdevel On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:50:54PM +0200, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote: > On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 11:40 -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: > [....] > > > But it may be covered by patents by Sun. So maybe not allowed make an > > > implementation. :( > > > Maybe you should consult SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) first or something. > > Since basically *you* wanted that feature in the first place (and for > whatever reason do not even start to work on it), Either you or I have lost track here. Fred without a lastname asked for ZFS support based on the grub code, and never replied again in this thread. Kevin volunteered to work on it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-22 7:44 ` Christoph Hellwig @ 2008-07-22 8:15 ` Bernd Petrovitsch 0 siblings, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: Bernd Petrovitsch @ 2008-07-22 8:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Christoph Hellwig Cc: Fred ., Kevin Winchester, Jeff Garzik, Linux Kernel Mailing List, linux-fsdevel On Tue, 2008-07-22 at 03:44 -0400, Christoph Hellwig wrote: > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 04:50:54PM +0200, Bernd Petrovitsch wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-07-21 at 11:40 -0300, Kevin Winchester wrote: > > [....] > > > > But it may be covered by patents by Sun. So maybe not allowed make an > > > > implementation. :( > > > > Maybe you should consult SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) first or something. That was quoted from a reply since that didn't make it in my mailbox (and perhaps on the list as the "Cc: added" suggests). > > Since basically *you* wanted that feature in the first place (and for > > whatever reason do not even start to work on it), > > Either you or I have lost track here. Fred without a lastname asked for > ZFS support based on the grub code, and never replied again in this ACK. To summarize: - First he requests that someone else implements/ports/... something (for whatever reason) to GPL/the kernel/.... - Then some advice, hints and a kind soul offers help (no problem for me). - And then the original requester comes up with "you might have check for potential patent problems" on technical mailinglist (at least most of the time;-). The following open questions for me were/are: - Why is *that* important for the original requester? - Why didn't he do his (legal) homework before or simply ignore that or - at least - stated it in the original mail[0]. - Which aspect/unresolved problem/potential problem will come next? > thread. Kevin volunteered to work on it. I have no problem with that. Heck, personally I don't have a problem if someone takes the ZFS source and makes a (completely separate) GPLv2 patch to use it in kernel-space (and not "only" with FUSE). The legal implications? Apart from the generic lawyer answer "it depends on the circumstances", I don't know. Bernd [0]: What's the English phrase for the German "Salami-Taktik"? You don't come up with the whole problem at once but try to solve it in small steps luring the problem solver (which gets only the next step presented) into it so that s/he can't stop (for whatever reason - it is heavily used in the commercial world). -- Firmix Software GmbH http://www.firmix.at/ mobil: +43 664 4416156 fax: +43 1 7890849-55 Embedded Linux Development and Services ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
* Re: Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) 2008-07-21 14:40 ` Kevin Winchester 2008-07-21 14:50 ` Bernd Petrovitsch @ 2008-07-21 15:17 ` jim owens 1 sibling, 0 replies; 12+ messages in thread From: jim owens @ 2008-07-21 15:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kevin Winchester; +Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List, linux-fsdevel Kevin Winchester wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Fred . <eldmannen@gmail.com> wrote: > >>On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Kevin Winchester >>> >>>No one else seems to have volunteered, so I would certainly like to >>>give it a try. I guess I need to get the ZFS grub code, create a ZFS >>>filesystem, and start looking around for information on linux >>>filesystem development and ZFS (obviously without looking at any CDDL >>>licensed code). >> >>Code can be found here; >>* http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/grub/grub-0.95/stage2/ >> >>But it may be covered by patents by Sun. So maybe not allowed make an >>implementation. :( >>Maybe you should consult SFLC (Software Freedom Law Center) first or something. >> > I would have no idea of the legal implications here. Do I really need > to get the lawyers involved just to use GPLv2 code from another > project in linux? Having just gone through open sourcing with lawyers, I would say anything with a GPLv2 is safe. Any patent Sun has on things released under GPLv2 is open for use. I don't know anything about CDDL rules, but if you don't look at it, you won't be legally contaminated. I have not looked at the ZFS grub code, but a general warning based on my experience with other filesystem bootstrap code is that it may be very limited and not be able to deal with all structures on a ZFS filesystem... you won't know until you hit one of them and fail. jim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 12+ messages in thread
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[not found] <f188924b0807171213q43f10b09j47b34674fc8aaa38@mail.gmail.com>
2008-07-17 19:45 ` Please add ZFS support (from GPL sources) Jeff Garzik
2008-07-17 20:18 ` Evgeniy Polyakov
2008-07-20 10:57 ` Christoph Hellwig
2008-07-20 12:35 ` Kevin Winchester
2008-07-20 16:56 ` Dave Kleikamp
2008-07-21 7:28 ` Christoph Hellwig
2008-07-21 11:39 ` Kevin Winchester
[not found] ` <f188924b0807210723v3a35de9fgc1565811a0597833@mail.gmail.com>
2008-07-21 14:40 ` Kevin Winchester
2008-07-21 14:50 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2008-07-22 7:44 ` Christoph Hellwig
2008-07-22 8:15 ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2008-07-21 15:17 ` jim owens
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