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(p200300d82f4a5800f1ae8e20d7f451b0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. [2003:d8:2f4a:5800:f1ae:8e20:d7f4:51b0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-3a1f5a4c5a4sm13747072f8f.81.2025.05.12.14.59.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 12 May 2025 14:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 May 2025 23:59:24 +0200 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: AF_UNIX/zerocopy/pipe/vmsplice/splice vs FOLL_PIN To: David Howells , Andrew Lunn Cc: Eric Dumazet , "David S. Miller" , Jakub Kicinski , John Hubbard , Christoph Hellwig , willy@infradead.org, Christian Brauner , Al Viro , Miklos Szeredi , torvalds@linux-foundation.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <1069540.1746202908@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <165f5d5b-34f2-40de-b0ec-8c1ca36babe8@lunn.ch> <0aa1b4a2-47b2-40a4-ae14-ce2dd457a1f7@lunn.ch> <1015189.1746187621@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <1021352.1746193306@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <2135907.1747061490@warthog.procyon.org.uk> From: David Hildenbrand Content-Language: en-US Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAl8Ox4kFCRKpKXgACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1oHcA//a6Tj7SBNjFNM1iNhWUo1lxAja0lpSodSnB2g4FCZ4R61SBR4l/psBL73xktp rDHrx4aSpwkRP6Epu6mLvhlfjmkRG4OynJ5HG1gfv7RJJfnUdUM1z5kdS8JBrOhMJS2c/gPf wv1TGRq2XdMPnfY2o0CxRqpcLkx4vBODvJGl2mQyJF/gPepdDfcT8/PY9BJ7FL6Hrq1gnAo4 3Iv9qV0JiT2wmZciNyYQhmA1V6dyTRiQ4YAc31zOo2IM+xisPzeSHgw3ONY/XhYvfZ9r7W1l pNQdc2G+o4Di9NPFHQQhDw3YTRR1opJaTlRDzxYxzU6ZnUUBghxt9cwUWTpfCktkMZiPSDGd KgQBjnweV2jw9UOTxjb4LXqDjmSNkjDdQUOU69jGMUXgihvo4zhYcMX8F5gWdRtMR7DzW/YE BgVcyxNkMIXoY1aYj6npHYiNQesQlqjU6azjbH70/SXKM5tNRplgW8TNprMDuntdvV9wNkFs 9TyM02V5aWxFfI42+aivc4KEw69SE9KXwC7FSf5wXzuTot97N9Phj/Z3+jx443jo2NR34XgF 89cct7wJMjOF7bBefo0fPPZQuIma0Zym71cP61OP/i11ahNye6HGKfxGCOcs5wW9kRQEk8P9 M/k2wt3mt/fCQnuP/mWutNPt95w9wSsUyATLmtNrwccz63XOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCXw7HsgUJEqkpoQAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWrrpD/4qS3dyVRxDcDHIlmguXjC1Q5tZTwNB boaBTPHSy/Nksu0eY7x6HfQJ3xajVH32Ms6t1trDQmPx2iP5+7iDsb7OKAb5eOS8h+BEBDeq 3ecsQDv0fFJOA9ag5O3LLNk+3x3q7e0uo06XMaY7UHS341ozXUUI7wC7iKfoUTv03iO9El5f XpNMx/YrIMduZ2+nd9Di7o5+KIwlb2mAB9sTNHdMrXesX8eBL6T9b+MZJk+mZuPxKNVfEQMQ a5SxUEADIPQTPNvBewdeI80yeOCrN+Zzwy/Mrx9EPeu59Y5vSJOx/z6OUImD/GhX7Xvkt3kq Er5KTrJz3++B6SH9pum9PuoE/k+nntJkNMmQpR4MCBaV/J9gIOPGodDKnjdng+mXliF3Ptu6 3oxc2RCyGzTlxyMwuc2U5Q7KtUNTdDe8T0uE+9b8BLMVQDDfJjqY0VVqSUwImzTDLX9S4g/8 kC4HRcclk8hpyhY2jKGluZO0awwTIMgVEzmTyBphDg/Gx7dZU1Xf8HFuE+UZ5UDHDTnwgv7E th6RC9+WrhDNspZ9fJjKWRbveQgUFCpe1sa77LAw+XFrKmBHXp9ZVIe90RMe2tRL06BGiRZr jPrnvUsUUsjRoRNJjKKA/REq+sAnhkNPPZ/NNMjaZ5b8Tovi8C0tmxiCHaQYqj7G2rgnT0kt WNyWQQ== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: <2135907.1747061490@warthog.procyon.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 12.05.25 16:51, David Howells wrote: > I'm looking at how to make sendmsg() handle page pinning - and also working > towards supporting the page refcount eventually being removed and only being > available with certain memory types. > > One of the outstanding issues is in sendmsg(). Analogously with DIO writes, > sendmsg() should be pinning memory (FOLL_PIN/GUP) rather than simply getting > refs on it before it attaches it to an sk_buff. Without this, if memory is > spliced into an AF_UNIX socket and then the process forks, that memory gets > attached to the child process, and the child can alter the data That should not be possible. Neither the child nor the parent can modify the page. Any write attempt will result in Copy-on-Write. The issue is that if the parent writes to some unrelated part of the page after fork() but before DIO completed, the parent will trigger Copy-on-Write and the DIO will essentially be lost from the parent's POV (goes to the wrong page). > probably by > accident, if the memory is on the stack or in the heap. > > Further, kernel services can use MSG_SPLICE_PAGES to attach memory directly to > an AF_UNIX pipe (though I'm not sure if anyone actually does this). > > (For writing to TCP/UDP with MSG_ZEROCOPY, MSG_SPLICE_PAGES or vmsplice, I > think we're probably fine - assuming the loopback driver doesn't give the > receiver the transmitter's buffers to use directly... This may be a big > 'if'.) > > Now, this probably wouldn't be a problem, but for the fact that one can also > splice this stuff back *out* of the socket. > > The same issues exist for pipes too. > > The question is what should happen here to a memory span for which the network > layer or pipe driver is not allowed to take reference, but rather must call a > destructor? Particularly if, say, it's just a small part of a larger span. > > It seems reasonable that we should allow pinned memory spans to be queued in a > socket or a pipe - that way, we only have to copy the data once in the event > that the data is extracted with read(), recvmsg() or similar. But if it's > spliced out we then have all the fun of managing the lifetime - especially if > it's a big transfer that gets split into bits. In such a case, I wonder if we > can just duplicate the memory at splice-out rather than trying to keep all the > tracking intact. > > If the memory was copied in, then moving the pages should be fine - though the > memory may not be of a ref'able type (which would be fun if bits of such a > page get spliced to different places). > > I'm sure there is some app somewhere (fuse maybe?) where this would be a > performance problem, though. > > And then there's vmsplice(). The same goes for vmsplice() to AF_UNIX or to a > pipe. That should also pin memory. It may also be possible to vmsplice a > pinned page into the target process's VM or a page from a memory span with > some other type of destruction. IIRC, vmsplice() never does that optimization for that direction (map pinned page into the target process). It would be a mess. But yes, vmsplice() should be using FOLL_PIN|FOLL_LONGTERM. Deprecation is unlikely to happen, I'm afraid :( -- Cheers, David / dhildenb