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[96.60.249.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 956f58d0204a3-642f707a9b9sm371524d50.6.2025.11.19.17.05.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 19 Nov 2025 17:05:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2025 20:05:33 -0500 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCHSET v6 4/8] fuse: allow servers to use iomap for better file IO performance To: "Darrick J. Wong" Cc: bernd@bsbernd.com, joannelkoong@gmail.com, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, miklos@szeredi.hu, neal@gompa.dev, linux-bcachefs@vger.kernel.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, zfs-devel@list.zfsonlinux.org References: <176169810144.1424854.11439355400009006946.stgit@frogsfrogsfrogs> <20251119180449.GS196358@frogsfrogsfrogs> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <20251119180449.GS196358@frogsfrogsfrogs> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------S5C4tdGLAP0AjKQkvP9jFY0O" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------S5C4tdGLAP0AjKQkvP9jFY0O Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------NSEBSGoCKxMj93bMaVcZAtHW"; protected-headers="v1" From: Demi Marie Obenour To: "Darrick J. Wong" Cc: bernd@bsbernd.com, joannelkoong@gmail.com, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, miklos@szeredi.hu, neal@gompa.dev, linux-bcachefs@vger.kernel.org, linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, zfs-devel@list.zfsonlinux.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCHSET v6 4/8] fuse: allow servers to use iomap for better file IO performance References: <176169810144.1424854.11439355400009006946.stgit@frogsfrogsfrogs> <20251119180449.GS196358@frogsfrogsfrogs> In-Reply-To: <20251119180449.GS196358@frogsfrogsfrogs> --------------NSEBSGoCKxMj93bMaVcZAtHW Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C6s7sC4jbxxpcVBTPW8SAxki" --------------C6s7sC4jbxxpcVBTPW8SAxki Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you so much for the helpful responses! On 11/19/25 13:04, Darrick J. Wong wrote: > On Wed, Nov 19, 2025 at 04:19:36AM -0500, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: >>> By keeping the I/O path mostly within the kernel, we can dramatically= >>> increase the speed of disk-based filesystems. >> >> ZFS, BTRFS, and bcachefs all support compression, checksumming, >> and RAID. ZFS and bcachefs also support encryption, and f2fs and >> ext4 support fscrypt. >> >> Will this patchset be able to improve FUSE implementations of these >> filesystems? I'd rather not be in the situation where one can have >> a FUSE filesystem that is fast, but only if it doesn't support modern >> data integrity or security features. >=20 > Not on its own, no. Not surprised. I'm mostly curious if there is a path forward to add such support in the future. >> I'm not a filesystem developer, but here are some ideas (that you >> can take or leave): >> >> 1. Keep the compression, checksumming, and/or encryption in-kernel, >> and have userspace tell the kernel what algorithm and/or encryption= >> key to use. These algorithms are generally well-known and secure >> against malicious input. It might be necessary to make an extra >> data copy, but ideally that copy could just stay within the >> CPU caches. >=20 > I think this is easily doable for fscrypt and compression since (IIRC) > the kernel filesystems already know how to transform data for I/O, and > nowadays iomap allows hooking of bios before submission and/or after > endio. Obviously you'd have to store encryption keys in the kernel > somewhere. >=20 > Checksumming is harder though, since the checksum information has to be= > persisted in the metadata somewhere and AFAICT each checksumming fs doe= s > things differently. For that, I think the fuse server would have to > convey to the kernel (a) a description of the checksum geometry and (b)= > a buffer for storing the checksums. On write the kernel would compute > the checksum and write it to the buffer for the fs to persist as part o= f > the ioend; and for read the fuse server would have to read the checksum= s > into the buffer and pass that to the kernel. That definitely sounds doable. Bcachefs, and I believe ZFS and BTRFS, store the checksum in the pointer. This means that when the kernel is asked to read data from the buffer, the checksum or authentication tag is already available. For CoW filesystems, there is still the problem that every write requires a metadata operation. Does that mean these filesystems will not be able to benefit for writes? Or can the latency be hidden somehow? > (Note that fsverity won't have this problem because all current > implementations stuff the merkle tree in post-eof datablocks; the > fsverity code only wants fses to read it in the pagecache; and pass it > the page) >=20 >> 2. Somehow integrate with the blk-crypto framework. This has the >> advantage that it supports inline encryption hardware, which >> I suspect is needed for this to be usable on mobile devices. >> After all, the keys on these systems are often not even visible >> to the kernel, let alone to userspace. >=20 > Yes, that would be even easier than messing around with bounce buffers.= Makes sense. >> 3. Figure out a way to make a userspace data path fast enough. >> To prevent data corruption by unprivileged users of the FS, >> it's necessary to make a copy before checksumming, compression, >> or authenticated encryption. If this copy is done in the kernel, >> the server doesn't have to perform its own copy. By using large >> ring buffers, it might be possible to amortize the context switch >> cost away. >> >> Authenticated encryption also needs a copy in the *other* direction= : >> if the (untrusted) client can see unauthenticated plaintext, it's >> a security vulnerability. That needs another copy from server >> buffers to client buffers, and the kernel can do that as well. >> >> 4. Make context switches much faster. L4-style IPC is incredibly fast= , >> at least if one doesn't have to worry about Spectre. Unfortunately= , >> nowadays one *does* need to worry about Spectre. >=20 > I don't think context switching overhead is going down. I agree, at least for big CPUs. >> Obviously, none of these will be as fast as doing DMA directly to user= >> buffers. However, all of these features (except for encryption using >> inline encryption hardware) come at a performance penalty already. >> I just don't want a FUSE server to have to pay a much larger penalty >> than a kernel filesystem would. >> >> I'm CCing the bcachefs, BTRFS, and ZFS-on-Linux mailing lists. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------C6s7sC4jbxxpcVBTPW8SAxki Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_0xB288B55FFF9C22C1.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP public key Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49y B+l2nipdaq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYf bWpr/si88QKgyGSVZ7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/ UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnTDlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7M MPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPxwcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9H 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