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[69.131.148.49]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 956f58d0204a3-64eabe7dcc9sm7542380d50.12.2026.03.24.03.02.26 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Mar 2026 03:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2026 06:02:20 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [Lsf-pc] [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Where is fuse going? API cleanup, restructuring and more To: Gao Xiang , Christian Brauner , Jan Kara Cc: "Darrick J. Wong" , Miklos Szeredi , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Joanne Koong , John Groves , Bernd Schubert , Amir Goldstein , Luis Henriques , Horst Birthelmer , Gao Xiang , lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org References: <361d312b-9706-45ca-8943-b655a75c765b@gmail.com> <390cd031-742b-4f1b-99c4-8ee41a259744@linux.alibaba.com> <72eaaed1-24a0-4c98-a7c0-ea249d541f2d@linux.alibaba.com> <9af9ad0e-8070-4aaa-9f64-7d72074bd948@linux.alibaba.com> <68116ee5-b1f7-484b-a520-7dc5aefd7738@linux.alibaba.com> <2gyfmxfnnxrglpzb7kz63xbve5vnosl6gi54c3umgrpwbjr4og@lz4e2ptqanfe> <20260324-hilfen-reibung-9783005d5d0f@brauner> <052d27ff-9239-44fa-8604-336de0dc4711@gmail.com> <99ffdfa1-b18a-4f05-91e2-81c320e8edb5@linux.alibaba.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <99ffdfa1-b18a-4f05-91e2-81c320e8edb5@linux.alibaba.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------gNq20rVIHqEeSu1kyax2cVjt" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------gNq20rVIHqEeSu1kyax2cVjt Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------iodFnkJS4i0f28t9yXBmtLkk"; protected-headers="v1" Message-ID: Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2026 06:02:20 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [Lsf-pc] [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Where is fuse going? API cleanup, restructuring and more To: Gao Xiang , Christian Brauner , Jan Kara Cc: "Darrick J. Wong" , Miklos Szeredi , linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Joanne Koong , John Groves , Bernd Schubert , Amir Goldstein , Luis Henriques , Horst Birthelmer , Gao Xiang , lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org References: <361d312b-9706-45ca-8943-b655a75c765b@gmail.com> <390cd031-742b-4f1b-99c4-8ee41a259744@linux.alibaba.com> <72eaaed1-24a0-4c98-a7c0-ea249d541f2d@linux.alibaba.com> <9af9ad0e-8070-4aaa-9f64-7d72074bd948@linux.alibaba.com> <68116ee5-b1f7-484b-a520-7dc5aefd7738@linux.alibaba.com> <2gyfmxfnnxrglpzb7kz63xbve5vnosl6gi54c3umgrpwbjr4og@lz4e2ptqanfe> <20260324-hilfen-reibung-9783005d5d0f@brauner> <052d27ff-9239-44fa-8604-336de0dc4711@gmail.com> <99ffdfa1-b18a-4f05-91e2-81c320e8edb5@linux.alibaba.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; keydata= xsFNBFp+A0oBEADffj6anl9/BHhUSxGTICeVl2tob7hPDdhHNgPR4C8xlYt5q49yB+l2nipd aq+4Gk6FZfqC825TKl7eRpUjMriwle4r3R0ydSIGcy4M6eb0IcxmuPYfbWpr/si88QKgyGSV Z7GeNW1UnzTdhYHuFlk8dBSmB1fzhEYEk0RcJqg4AKoq6/3/UorR+FaSuVwT7rqzGrTlscnT DlPWgRzrQ3jssesI7sZLm82E3pJSgaUoCdCOlL7MMPCJwI8JpPlBedRpe9tfVyfu3euTPLPx wcV3L/cfWPGSL4PofBtB8NUU6QwYiQ9Hzx4xOyn67zW73/G0Q2vPPRst8LBDqlxLjbtx/WLR 6h3nBc3eyuZ+q62HS1pJ5EvUT1vjyJ1ySrqtUXWQ4XlZyoEFUfpJxJoN0A9HCxmHGVckzTRl 5FMWo8TCniHynNXsBtDQbabt7aNEOaAJdE7to0AH3T/Bvwzcp0ZJtBk0EM6YeMLtotUut7h2 Bkg1b//r6bTBswMBXVJ5H44Qf0+eKeUg7whSC9qpYOzzrm7+0r9F5u3qF8ZTx55TJc2g656C 9a1P1MYVysLvkLvS4H+crmxA/i08Tc1h+x9RRvqba4lSzZ6/Tmt60DPM5Sc4R0nSm9BBff0N m0bSNRS8InXdO1Aq3362QKX2NOwcL5YaStwODNyZUqF7izjK4QARAQABzTxEZW1pIE1hcmll IE9iZW5vdXIgKGxvdmVyIG9mIGNvZGluZykgPGRlbWlvYmVub3VyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT7CwXgE EwECACIFAlp+A0oCGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJELKItV//nCLBhr8Q AK/xrb4wyi71xII2hkFBpT59ObLN+32FQT7R3lbZRjVFjc6yMUjOb1H/hJVxx+yo5gsSj5LS 9AwggioUSrcUKldfA/PKKai2mzTlUDxTcF3vKx6iMXKA6AqwAw4B57ZEJoMM6egm57TV19kz PMc879NV2nc6+elaKl+/kbVeD3qvBuEwsTe2Do3HAAdrfUG/j9erwIk6gha/Hp9yZlCnPTX+ VK+xifQqt8RtMqS5R/S8z0msJMI/ajNU03kFjOpqrYziv6OZLJ5cuKb3bZU5aoaRQRDzkFIR 6aqtFLTohTo20QywXwRa39uFaOT/0YMpNyel0kdOszFOykTEGI2u+kja35g9TkH90kkBTG+a EWttIht0Hy6YFmwjcAxisSakBuHnHuMSOiyRQLu43ej2+mDWgItLZ48Mu0C3IG1seeQDjEYP tqvyZ6bGkf2Vj+L6wLoLLIhRZxQOedqArIk/Sb2SzQYuxN44IDRt+3ZcDqsPppoKcxSyd1Ny 2tpvjYJXlfKmOYLhTWs8nwlAlSHX/c/jz/ywwf7eSvGknToo1Y0VpRtoxMaKW1nvH0OeCSVJ itfRP7YbiRVc2aNqWPCSgtqHAuVraBRbAFLKh9d2rKFB3BmynTUpc1BQLJP8+D5oNyb8Ts4x Xd3iV/uD8JLGJfYZIR7oGWFLP4uZ3tkneDfYzsFNBFp+A0oBEAC9ynZI9LU+uJkMeEJeJyQ/ 8VFkCJQPQZEsIGzOTlPnwvVna0AS86n2Z+rK7R/usYs5iJCZ55/JISWd8xD57ue0eB47bcJv VqGlObI2DEG8TwaW0O0duRhDgzMEL4t1KdRAepIESBEA/iPpI4gfUbVEIEQuqdqQyO4GAe+M kD0Hy5JH/0qgFmbaSegNTdQg5iqYjRZ3ttiswalql1/iSyv1WYeC1OAs+2BLOAT2NEggSiVO txEfgewsQtCWi8H1SoirakIfo45Hz0tk/Ad9ZWh2PvOGt97Ka85o4TLJxgJJqGEnqcFUZnJJ riwoaRIS8N2C8/nEM53jb1sH0gYddMU3QxY7dYNLIUrRKQeNkF30dK7V6JRH7pleRlf+wQcN fRAIUrNlatj9TxwivQrKnC9aIFFHEy/0mAgtrQShcMRmMgVlRoOA5B8RTulRLCmkafvwuhs6 dCxN0GNAORIVVFxjx9Vn7OqYPgwiofZ6SbEl0hgPyWBQvE85klFLZLoj7p+joDY1XNQztmfA rnJ9x+YV4igjWImINAZSlmEcYtd+xy3Li/8oeYDAqrsnrOjb+WvGhCykJk4urBog2LNtcyCj kTs7F+WeXGUo0NDhbd3Z6AyFfqeF7uJ3D5hlpX2nI9no/ugPrrTVoVZAgrrnNz0iZG2DVx46 x913pVKHl5mlYQARAQABwsFfBBgBAgAJBQJafgNKAhsMAAoJELKItV//nCLBwNIP/AiIHE8b oIqReFQyaMzxq6lE4YZCZNj65B/nkDOvodSiwfwjjVVE2V3iEzxMHbgyTCGA67+Bo/d5aQGj gn0TPtsGzelyQHipaUzEyrsceUGWYoKXYyVWKEfyh0cDfnd9diAm3VeNqchtcMpoehETH8fr RHnJdBcjf112PzQSdKC6kqU0Q196c4Vp5HDOQfNiDnTf7gZSj0BraHOByy9LEDCLhQiCmr+2 E0rW4tBtDAn2HkT9uf32ZGqJCn1O+2uVfFhGu6vPE5qkqrbSE8TG+03H8ecU2q50zgHWPdHM OBvy3EhzfAh2VmOSTcRK+tSUe/u3wdLRDPwv/DTzGI36Kgky9MsDC5gpIwNbOJP2G/q1wT1o Gkw4IXfWv2ufWiXqJ+k7HEi2N1sree7Dy9KBCqb+ca1vFhYPDJfhP75I/VnzHVssZ/rYZ9+5 1yDoUABoNdJNSGUYl+Yh9Pw9pE3Kt4EFzUlFZWbE4xKL/NPno+z4J9aWemLLszcYz/u3XnbO vUSQHSrmfOzX3cV4yfmjM5lewgSstoxGyTx2M8enslgdXhPthZlDnTnOT+C+OTsh8+m5tos8 HQjaPM01MKBiAqdPgksm1wu2DrrwUi6ChRVTUBcj6+/9IJ81H2P2gJk3Ls3AVIxIffLoY34E +MYSfkEjBz0E8CLOcAw7JIwAaeBT In-Reply-To: <99ffdfa1-b18a-4f05-91e2-81c320e8edb5@linux.alibaba.com> --------------iodFnkJS4i0f28t9yXBmtLkk Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------lJFbOD56qmRulslEi2SfL0AW" --------------lJFbOD56qmRulslEi2SfL0AW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/24/26 05:53, Gao Xiang wrote: >=20 >=20 > On 2026/3/24 17:49, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: >> On 3/24/26 05:30, Gao Xiang wrote: >>> Hi Christian, >>> >>> On 2026/3/24 16:48, Christian Brauner wrote: >>>> On Mon, Mar 23, 2026 at 03:47:24PM +0100, Jan Kara wrote: >>>>> On Mon 23-03-26 22:36:46, Gao Xiang wrote: >>>>>> On 2026/3/23 22:13, Jan Kara wrote: >>>>>>>>> think that is the corner cases if you don't claim the >>>>>>>>> limitation of FUSE approaches. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If none expects that, that is absolute be fine, as I said, >>>>>>>>> it provides strong isolation and stability, but I really >>>>>>>>> suspect this approach could be abused to mount totally >>>>>>>>> untrusted remote filesystems (Actually as I said, some >>>>>>>>> business of ours already did: fetching EXT4 filesystems >>>>>>>>> with unknown status and mount without fscking, that is >>>>>>>>> really disappointing.) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, someone downloading untrusted ext4 image, mounting in read-w= rite and >>>>>>> using it for sensitive application, that falls to "insane" catego= ry for me >>>>>>> :) We agree on that. And I agree that depending on the applicatio= n using >>>>>>> FUSE to access such filesystem needn't be safe enough and immutab= le fs + >>>>>>> overlayfs writeable layer may provide better guarantees about fs = behavior. >>>>>> >>>>>> That is my overall goal, I just want to make it clear >>>>>> the difference out of write isolation, but of course, >>>>>> "secure" or not is relative, and according to the >>>>>> system design. >>>>>> >>>>>> If isolation and system stability are enough for >>>>>> a system and can be called "secure", yes, they are >>>>>> both the same in such aspects. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I would still consider such design highly suspicious but without = more >>>>>>> detailed knowledge about the application I cannot say it's outrig= ht broken >>>>>>> :). >>>>>> >>>>>> What do you mean "such design"? "Writable untrusted >>>>>> remote EXT4 images mounting on the host"? Really, we have >>>>>> such applications for containers for many years but I don't >>>>>> want to name it here, but I'm totally exhaused by such >>>>>> usage (since I explained many many times, and they even >>>>>> never bother with LWN.net) and the internal team. >>>>> >>>>> By "such design" I meant generally the concept that you fetch files= ystem >>>>> images (regardless whether ext4 or some other type) from untrusted = source. >>>>> Unless you do cryptographical verification of the data, you never k= now what >>>>> kind of garbage your application is processing which is always invi= tation >>>>> for nasty exploits and bugs... >>>> >>>> If this is another 500 mail discussion about FS_USERNS_MOUNT on >>>> block-backed filesystems then my verdict still stands that the only >>>> condition under which I will let the VFS allow this if the underlyin= g >>>> device is signed and dm-verity protected. The kernel will continue t= o >>>> refuse unprivileged policy in general and specifically based on qual= ity >>>> or implementation of the underlying filesystem driver. >>> >>> >>> First, if block devices are your concern, fine, how about >>> allowing it if EROFS file-backed mounts and S_IMMUTABLE >>> for underlay files is set, and refuse any block device >>> mounts. >>> >>> If the issue is "you don't know how to define the quality >>> or implementation of the underlying filesystem drivers", >>> you could list your detailed concerns (I think at least >>> people have trust to the individual filesystem >>> maintainers' judgements), otherwise there will be endless >>> new sets of new immutable filesystems for this requirement >>> (previously, composefs , puzzlefs, and tarfs are all for >>> this; I admit I didn't get the point of FS_USERNS_MOUNT >>> at that time of 2023; but know I also think FS_USERNS_MOUNT >>> is a strong requirement for DinD for example), because that >>> idea should be sensible according to Darrick and Jan's >>> reply, and I think more people will agree with that. >>> >>> And another idea is that you still could return arbitary >>> metadata with immutable FUSE fses and let users get >>> garbage (meta)data, and FUSE already allows FS_USERNS_MOUNT, >>> and if user and mount namespaces are isolated, why bothering >>> it? >>> >>> I just hope know why? And as you may notice, >>> "Demi Marie Obenour wrote:" >>> >>>> The only exceptions are if the filesystem is incredibly simple >>>> or formal methods are used, and neither is the case for existing >>>> filesystems in the Linux kernel. >>> >>> I still strong disagree with that judgement, a minimal EROFS >>> can build an image with superblock, dirs, and files with >>> xattrs in a 4k-size image; and 4k image should be enough for >>> fuzzing; also the in-core EROFS format even never allocates >>> any extra buffers, which is much simplar than FUSE. >>> >>> In brief, so how to meet your requirement? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Gao Xiang >> >> Rewriting the code in Rust would dramatically reduce the attack >> surface when it comes to memory corruption. That's a lot to ask, >> though, and a lot of work. >=20 > I don't think so, FUSE can do FS_USERNS_MOUNT and written in C > , and the attack surface is already huge. >=20 > EROFS will switch to Rust some time, but your judgement will > make people to make another complete new toys of Rust kernel > filesystems --- just because EROFS is currently not written > in Rust. >=20 > I'm completely exhaused with such game: If I will address > every single fuzzing bug and CVE, why not? >=20 > Thanks, > Gao Xiang I should have written that rewriting in Rust could help convince people that it is in fact safe. One *can* make safe C code, as shown by OpenSSH. It's just *harder* to write safe C code, and harder to demonstrate to others that C code is in fact safe. Whether the burden of proof being placed on you is excessive is a separate question that I do not have the experience to comment on. That said: > I will address every single fuzzing bug and CVE is very different than the view of most filesystem developers. 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