Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Steve Lampereur]

>Howdy:
>
> Wouldn't it be great if there was a firmware flash that
>would set several (11 or more) channels inside 2390 - 2450 MHz.
>Or, at least, redefining channels 7 - 11 inside 2390-2350 MHz.
>Assuming that, some day, somewhere, interference will exist
>with part 15 users.
>
>Chuck nc8q

Sure would be.  In theory someone with enough knowledge could 
come up with something like this as all 802.11b devices use the
same Prism chipset.  What would be even better is if the 
manufacures offered this firmware flash to hams who requested 
it.  A few manufactures do this to some extent but worry about
their Part 15 certification.  But maybe if a group like TAPR 
talked to these manufactures this firmware flash could happen?

Problem is 2400-2450 is shared with Part 15.  2390-2400 isn't 
enough for even one DSSS channel as they are 22 MHz wide.  In
theory if you opperate under Part 97 you are given some 
protection from all the other wireless stuff that is classified
as Part 15.  See and old message of mine: 
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/confused.txt
But then again under Part 97 you allowed more radiated power,
so you might be able to overcome this interference.

Overview:
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Ham_Ethernet_GBPPR.pdf

>
>Steve Lampereur wrote:
>> 
>> Actually most of the Part 15 users with external antennas are in violation of
>> Sec. 15.204  External radio frequency power amplifiers and antenna
>> modifications.
>> 
>> Reclassifying by simply calling it Part 97 and opperating within the first 6
>> channels provides a legal way around this.
>
> ...and actually having a part 97 license... ;-

Alot of hams are using this technology but under Part 15.  I also assumed 
everyone on this (linux-hams) list is licensed.  

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Riley Williams]

Hi Steve.

>>> Reclassifying by simply calling it Part 97 and opperating within the
>>> first 6 channels provides a legal way around this.

>> ...and actually having a part 97 license... ;-

> A lot of hams are using this technology but under Part 15. I also
> assumed everyone on this (linux-hams) list is licensed.

I'm licensed, but "Part 15" and "Part 97" means nothing to me as I'm not
in the USA. I would suspect that whoever posted that comment also isn't
in the USA but elsewhere in the world (memory says Australia) and thus
is subject to the vagarities of his or her national radio regulatory
authority.

For reference, here in the UK, it's the Radiocommunications Agency and
"Document BR68" that defines what licensed radio amateurs can and cannot
do, and the said document doesn't come anywhere near having 97 parts
(the current one has 12 parts).

Best wishes from Riley.

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Hamish Moffatt]

On Tue, Jul 16, 2002 at 10:16:30AM -0500, Steve Lampereur wrote:
> come up with something like this as all 802.11b devices use the
> same Prism chipset.  

Are you sure about that?


Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <hamish@debian.org> <hamish@cloud.net.au>

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Jason Flynn G7OCD]

>>come up with something like this as all 802.11b devices use the
>>same Prism chipset.  
> 
> 
> Are you sure about that?

He shouldn't be :-) There's also a Hermes chipset.

Intersil = Prism, Lucent = Hermes ?

	73,
		J

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Steve Lampereur]

>>Anyone know if this is possible (well legal I know the mods are
>>technically possible) in VK?  The US and Australian laws are similar but
>>maybe the differences are enough to thwart it.
>>
>> - Craig

According to Document BR68 where much of it is in a table format called the
Schedule, from 2400-2450 MHz licensed hams can run upto 400W (26dBW) and the
Permitted Types of Transmission include: (5th column) Morse, Telephony,
RTTY, Data, Facsimilie, SSTV, FSTV.

>NOTES TO SCHEDULE
>(d) *Any modulation technique* (except for pulse emissions below 1000 MHz)
may be used >for the types of transmission specified in the fifth column of
the Schedule which are >defined as follows:
>Morse    : hand or automatically-sent Morse code
>Telephony: speech, including selective calling signals
>RTTY     : radio teletype and AMTOR
>Data*    : digital codes representing numbers, text, speech, images,
measurements,     >           computer programs or other Information
authorised by the Licence
>Facsimile: transmission of fixed or graphic images
>SSTV     : slow scan (ie, reduced bandwidth) television
>FSTV     : fast scan television.

Reading that makes me believe using Spread Spectrum is legal in the UK under
Amateur their rules..

>IDENTIFICATION - 7(1)
>(d) by the same type of transmission that is being used for the
>communication;

Reads basically the same here, nesting your call in the ethernet datagram
should fullfill this.


Hope this helps, 73' Steve
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/Ham_Ethernet_GBPPR.pdf

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Jason Flynn G7OCD]

Steve Lampereur wrote:

A lot of stuff that only pertains to the UK :-) But...

> According to Document BR68 where much of it is in a table format called the
> Schedule, from 2400-2450 MHz licensed hams can run upto 400W (26dBW) and the
> Permitted Types of Transmission include: (5th column) Morse, Telephony,
> RTTY, Data, Facsimilie, SSTV, FSTV.

Remember, if you're running unattended you have to
a) write a letter to the local RIS officer.
b) Only run 14dBW.

He can still object.
He may do this if he thinks 14dBW + 15dB Antenna gain might
affect other local (non-ham) users...

> Reading that makes me believe using Spread Spectrum is legal in the UK under
> Amateur their rules..

Only if the spreading codes are publicly available.
In this case they are so it's OK, but if they
weren't we would be 'encoding to obscure the transmission'
  rather than 'facilitating transmission'.

	J

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Jason Flynn G7OCD]

Colin Harris wrote:

>             If this equates to the norm for data
> transmissions ( for BBS's / Nodes / Clusters then this is
> supposed to be 14 dBW ERP ( which of course includes antenna
> gain ) is it not ?

Oops yes you're right. (tots up in head... Phew, I'm still
5dB under even with antenna gain!)
14dBW *ERP* for BOTH unattended on BR68 and for NoVs.

Still, 14dBW ERP in a shared spectrum segment may give concern
to the RIS officer in built up areas. I suspect most RIS officers
just bin them anyway...

	J

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Steve Lampereur]

>Anyone know if this is possible (well legal I know the mods are
>technically possible) in VK?  The US and Australian laws are similar but
>maybe the differences are enough to thwart it.
>
> - Craig

I tried to find Australian Amateur rules online, The rules are laid out 
much different.  It dosen't really tell you which modes are permitted.  
Like if Spread Spectrum is. So I guess you might have to reference the 
ITU emmission classes.  (http://www.itu.int/radioclub/rr/aps01.htm) 
While nobody seems to know the official emission class of 802.11b, 
people have come up with 22M0DXWWW or 22M0DXWWC.  I should also note 
that your 2.4 GHz Australian Amateur bandplan is much the same as it is
here in the USA;  Secondary amateur allocations from 2400 - 2450 MHz 
(ISM primary).

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Steve Lampereur]

Actually most of the Part 15 users with external antennas are in violation of 
Sec. 15.204  External radio frequency power amplifiers and antenna
modifications.

Reclassifying by simply calling it Part 97 and opperating within the first 6
channels provides a legal way around this.

Overview:
http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/plan.html

>Hi,
>
>Why do you want to modify the frequency. These wireless devices already can
>be used without an amateur license. Some types already have an external
>antenna connector.
>
>Interesting link on this topic: http://www.ronen.ampr.org/~ronen/wlan.html
>
>73 Henk PA5KT

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Craig Small]

On Mon, Jul 08, 2002 at 03:22:50PM -0500, Steve Lampereur wrote:
> Actually most of the Part 15 users with external antennas are in violation of 
> Sec. 15.204  External radio frequency power amplifiers and antenna
> modifications.
> 
> Reclassifying by simply calling it Part 97 and opperating within the first 6
> channels provides a legal way around this.
> 
> Overview:
> http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/plan.html

Anyone know if this is possible (well legal I know the mods are
technically possible) in VK?  The US and Australian laws are similar but
maybe the differences are enough to thwart it.

 - Craig
-- 
Craig Small VK2XLZ  GnuPG:1C1B D893 1418 2AF4 45EE  95CB C76C E5AC 12CA DFA5
Eye-Net Consulting http://www.eye-net.com.au/        <csmall@eye-net.com.au>
MIEEE <csmall@ieee.org>                 Debian developer <csmall@debian.org>

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Chuck Gelm]

Howdy:

 Wouldn't it be great if there was a firmware flash that
would set several (11 or more) channels inside 2390 - 2450 MHz.
Or, at least, redefining channels 7 - 11 inside 2390-2350 MHz.
Assuming that, some day, somewhere, interference will exist
with part 15 users.

Chuck nc8q

Steve Lampereur wrote:
> 
> Actually most of the Part 15 users with external antennas are in violation of
> Sec. 15.204  External radio frequency power amplifiers and antenna
> modifications.
> 
> Reclassifying by simply calling it Part 97 and opperating within the first 6
> channels provides a legal way around this.

 ...and actually having a part 97 license... ;-)

> 
> Overview:
> http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/plan.html
<snip>

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Jack Zielke]

Hello,
    We want to modify the frequency so that we can use part 97 rules
instead of part 15.  If anyone sees anything wrong...please correct me.
As long as the device stays on the frequency for non-hams everyone,
including hams, have to obey the part 15 rules.  If we change the
frequency to a ham band that allows spread spectrum we can use the part 97
rules instead.
    As I understand it the main goal is to get away from the 1 Watt limit
and the 6dB antenna gain limit.  If we change to a ham band we can use up
to 100 Watts and any dB gain antenna.

Jack

-- 
main(c){float t,x,y,b=-2,a=b;for(;b-=a>2?.1/(a=-2):0,b<2;putchar(30+
c),a+=.0503)for(x=y=c=0;++c<90&x*x+y*y<4;y=2*x*y+b,x=t)t=x*x-y*y+a;}

shamelessly stolen from: http://home.wxs.nl/~faase009/Signindex.html

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Matti Aarnio]

On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 06:51:58PM -0400, Jack Zielke wrote:
> Hello,
>     We want to modify the frequency so that we can use part 97 rules
> instead of part 15.  If anyone sees anything wrong...please correct me.
> As long as the device stays on the frequency for non-hams everyone,
> including hams, have to obey the part 15 rules.  If we change the
> frequency to a ham band that allows spread spectrum we can use the part 97
> rules instead.
>     As I understand it the main goal is to get away from the 1 Watt limit
> and the 6dB antenna gain limit.  If we change to a ham band we can use up
> to 100 Watts and any dB gain antenna.

   Rules vary a bit from country to country (or at least between the
   IARU regions), but having hardware operate in HAM frequency allocations
   by a HAM identifying as an automatic HAM station (e.g. 47 bits of MAC
   header gets encoded something looking like a call-sign..), we can do
   all manner of nasty things, like put 0.1-1.0 kW PA and 30-35 dB antenna
   gain..

   Nastiness of course is just to those hapless people who have to abide
   to unlicensed ISM rules ( 100 mW/6dBi in Finland ) when hams blow over
   them with high power and big antennae.

   Most WLAN cards have extremely wide receivers, which drown out their
   AGC when they receive powerfull RF within 200-400 MHz.  Narrow Rx
   pre-filter helps, but does not appear at commodity pcmcia cards.
   For that matter, separate Rx/Tx paths, and PTT signal are not
   available at commodity stuff either.

> Jack

/Matti Aarnio -- OH2MQK

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[James Cutler]

>
>    Most WLAN cards have extremely wide receivers, which drown out their
>    AGC when they receive powerfull RF within 200-400 MHz.  Narrow Rx
>    pre-filter helps, but does not appear at commodity pcmcia cards.
>    For that matter, separate Rx/Tx paths, and PTT signal are not
>    available at commodity stuff either.

Anyone know if WLAN cards can handle doppler shift say from a LEO
satellite?

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Matti Aarnio]

On Wed, May 01, 2002 at 05:33:54PM -0700, James Cutler wrote:
> >    Most WLAN cards have extremely wide receivers, which drown out their
> >    AGC when they receive powerfull RF within 200-400 MHz.  Narrow Rx
> >    pre-filter helps, but does not appear at commodity pcmcia cards.
> >    For that matter, separate Rx/Tx paths, and PTT signal are not
> >    available at commodity stuff either.
> 
> Anyone know if WLAN cards can handle doppler shift say from a LEO
> satellite?

   Possibly can.  It all depends on the oscillator if it can be
   programmed in small enough steps -- and having suitable firmware
   that can be commanded.  Lets see more:

   Spacecraft downlink can be at 2.4 GHz, but uplink must be somewhere
   else, say 5.6 GHz (national regulations vary a bit again, but
   the uplink can't be at 2.4 GHz.)

   8 km/sec speed (average LEO) translates to doppler as:
     2.4 GHz:  64 kHz
    10.5 GHz: 280 kHz
   Which of course means that it is coming straight at you, while
   in reality it passes by -> radial speed is always lower.

   For link-budget S/N reasons there most probably is need to:
      - Narrow the bandwidth ( = bitrate)
      - Send shorter frames to improve changes of sending correct frame
      - use non-IEEE spreading-code (one of those ARRL codes?)
      - Center frequency tuning by 100 or 1000 Hz steps.
      - Separated Rx/Tx/PTT signals

   Which all boils down to: new firmware
   and possibly custom hardware.


   I have wondered what would be the interesting technical thing for
   a talked about AMSAT-OH satellite, a Spread-Spectrum datalink would
   be a first one (although AO-40 should be able to do it too).
   (And no, we are just beginning the talks..)

/Matti Aarnio -- OH2MQK

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Stephan Greene]

On Wed, 1 May 2002, Jack Zielke wrote:

>     We want to modify the frequency so that we can use part 97 rules
> instead of part 15.  If anyone sees anything wrong...please correct me.

Keep in mind that under Part 15 rules, however, you can use SSH, SSL, go 
to on-line shopping sites, view adult content, etc.  Under Part 97 rules, 
you might have problems with respect to encrypted access (ssh keys to 
ident an unencrypted channel is a different matter, IMHO), accessing 
commercial sites, etc.  Hams in other countries have to follow their own 
licensing regs.

73, 
Steve
KA1LM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stephan A. Greene     sgreene@patriot.net        ka1lm@amsat.org
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Jack Zielke]

Hello,
    I think you will find a page dedicated to this subject, even listing a
manufacturer that will modify their product if you send them a copy of
your license, at: http://www.qsl.net/kb9mwr/projects/wireless/plan.html


Jack

-- 
for (unpack('C25', 'Just another Perl hacker,')) {
        printf "%03d", $_ + 256;
}
$_="wHFG NABGURE cREY UNPXRE,";y/a-zA-Z/N-ZA-Mn-za-m/;print;

stolen from: ftp://ftp.demon.co.uk/pub/mirrors/perl/CPAN/misc/japh

802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)]

Hi list,

A few days ago, I saw a message about configuring a 802.11b network
adapter under Linux.

For those who don't know, 802.11b (also called 'WiFi') is a wireless lan 
protocol, to connect 'remote' computers to Ethernet networks via a
radio link. 802.11b equipments (network adapters, access points, bridges) 
are becoming more and more popular, and prices are very affordable.

These equipments are using freqencies over 2400 MHz. The exact
frequency coverage depends on country regulations, ie in France, only
4 channels are allowed, around 2450 to 2480 (not sure about the exact
values). Maximum throughput is 11 Mbits with high efficiency modulation
techniques.

PURPOSE:
--------

Does someone think it would be technically possible to modify the
radio part of such a network adapter, in order to work on the amateur
radio 2.4 GHz frequencies (2350-2400) ?

I presume this is not so easy ;-) This would anyway allow great 
capabilities for high rate TCP/IP packet-radio links for affordable 
prices.

Could some specialists of SHF and/or digital modulation techniques give
us their point of view about the feasibility of such modifications on
commercial 802.11b equipments ?

(sorry for my poor english which may be inaccurate ;-)

Thanks for comments & best 73,
Toussaint.

-- 
 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)            WWW   : http://kalliste.fr.fm
 Phone : (+33) 6.10.28.41.72 (GSM)   Email : t_ottavi@club-internet.fr
 Mail  : B.P. 223, F-20179 AJACCIO   Packet: TK1BI@TK5KP.FCOR.FRA.EU

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[gel2256@dnaco]

Hi, Toussaint:

 Yes, maybe. ;-)

It is exciting to have 11 megabit data radios for $80 - $120 US !

 In the USA, the Amateur band segment is 2390-2450.
In the 802.11b cards sold in/for USA, channels
1 through 6 fall within that Amateur Radio segment.

 Perhaps there are some Amateur Radio operators
working for an 802.11b manufacturer that would create
firmware data that could be flashed into the card(s) that
would put them inside the Amateur Radio bands of all/any
countries with 2.4 GHz emission authorizations.

OBTW, Isn't 2.4 GHz UHF, rather than SHF? ;-)

Station ID via the 'Pattern function of 'ping':
ping -f -i 600 -p <## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ## ##>
                   20 44 45 20 4E 43 38 51 20 20
                       D  E     N  C  8  Q

HTH, Chuck

"Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)" wrote:
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> A few days ago, I saw a message about configuring a 802.11b network
> adapter under Linux.
> 
> For those who don't know, 802.11b (also called 'WiFi') is a wireless lan
> protocol, to connect 'remote' computers to Ethernet networks via a
> radio link. 802.11b equipments (network adapters, access points, bridges)
> are becoming more and more popular, and prices are very affordable.
> 
> These equipments are using freqencies over 2400 MHz. The exact
> frequency coverage depends on country regulations, ie in France, only
> 4 channels are allowed, around 2450 to 2480 (not sure about the exact
> values). Maximum throughput is 11 Mbits with high efficiency modulation
> techniques.
> 
> PURPOSE:
> --------
> 
> Does someone think it would be technically possible to modify the
> radio part of such a network adapter, in order to work on the amateur
> radio 2.4 GHz frequencies (2350-2400) ?
> 
> I presume this is not so easy ;-) This would anyway allow great
> capabilities for high rate TCP/IP packet-radio links for affordable
> prices.
> 
> Could some specialists of SHF and/or digital modulation techniques give
> us their point of view about the feasibility of such modifications on
> commercial 802.11b equipments ?
> 
> (sorry for my poor english which may be inaccurate ;-)
> 
> Thanks for comments & best 73,
> Toussaint.
> 
> --
>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>  Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)            WWW   : http://kalliste.fr.fm
>  Phone : (+33) 6.10.28.41.72 (GSM)   Email : t_ottavi@club-internet.fr
>  Mail  : B.P. 223, F-20179 AJACCIO   Packet: TK1BI@TK5KP.FCOR.FRA.EU
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Re: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?

[Henk Remijn]

Hi,

Why do you want to modify the frequency. These wireless devices already can
be used without an amateur license. Some types already have an external
antenna connector.

Interesting link on this topic: http://www.ronen.ampr.org/~ronen/wlan.html

73 Henk PA5KT


----- Original Message -----
From: "Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)" <t_ottavi@club-internet.fr>
To: "linux-hams" <linux-hams@vger.kernel.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 1:22 PM
Subject: 802.11b wireless lan equipment and ham radio ?


> Hi list,
>
> A few days ago, I saw a message about configuring a 802.11b network
> adapter under Linux.
>
> For those who don't know, 802.11b (also called 'WiFi') is a wireless lan
> protocol, to connect 'remote' computers to Ethernet networks via a
> radio link. 802.11b equipments (network adapters, access points, bridges)
> are becoming more and more popular, and prices are very affordable.
>
> These equipments are using freqencies over 2400 MHz. The exact
> frequency coverage depends on country regulations, ie in France, only
> 4 channels are allowed, around 2450 to 2480 (not sure about the exact
> values). Maximum throughput is 11 Mbits with high efficiency modulation
> techniques.
>
> PURPOSE:
> --------
>
> Does someone think it would be technically possible to modify the
> radio part of such a network adapter, in order to work on the amateur
> radio 2.4 GHz frequencies (2350-2400) ?
>
> I presume this is not so easy ;-) This would anyway allow great
> capabilities for high rate TCP/IP packet-radio links for affordable
> prices.
>
> Could some specialists of SHF and/or digital modulation techniques give
> us their point of view about the feasibility of such modifications on
> commercial 802.11b equipments ?
>
> (sorry for my poor english which may be inaccurate ;-)
>
> Thanks for comments & best 73,
> Toussaint.
>
> --
>  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>  Toussaint OTTAVI (TK1BI)            WWW   : http://kalliste.fr.fm
>  Phone : (+33) 6.10.28.41.72 (GSM)   Email : t_ottavi@club-internet.fr
>  Mail  : B.P. 223, F-20179 AJACCIO   Packet: TK1BI@TK5KP.FCOR.FRA.EU
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-hams" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html