What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[- -]

Hi, there!

Why don't we get rid of 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' utilities? Both
of them are used only during boot-time and immediately after launching
of 'udevd', so why doesn't 'udevd' include their functionality?

Thanks.

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What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[xandrous]

Hi, there!

Why don't you get rid of 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' utilities? Both
of them are used only during boot-time and immediately after launching
of 'udevd', so why doesn't 'udevd' include their functionality?

Thanks.

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Aug 09, 2006 at 08:18:01PM +0400, xandrous@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi, there!
> 
> Why don't you get rid of 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' utilities? Both
> of them are used only during boot-time and immediately after launching
> of 'udevd', so why doesn't 'udevd' include their functionality?

Why bloat udevd, a long running daemon, with the functions needed in
udevtrigger that would not help out udevd at all?

Remember the unix way, small tools, joined together...

thanks,

greg k-h

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Aaron Griffin]

On 8/9/06, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
> > Why don't you get rid of 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' utilities? Both
> > of them are used only during boot-time and immediately after launching
> > of 'udevd', so why doesn't 'udevd' include their functionality?
>
> Why bloat udevd, a long running daemon, with the functions needed in
> udevtrigger that would not help out udevd at all?
>
> Remember the unix way, small tools, joined together...

Yeah, but there is a fine line there.  I mean, why don't all unix
tools read from stdin only, and force 'cat' usage to read files?
Neither udevtrigger nor udevsettle have any use case outside of
initializing udevd.  I think the OP has a point, but there's probably
some more philosophical rationale that I'm unaware of.

I wonder how much the inclusion of these two would "bloat" udevd,
considering there's probably some overlap there anyway.

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[xandrous]

> Yeah, but there is a fine line there.  I mean, why don't all unix
> tools read from stdin only, and force 'cat' usage to read files?
> Neither udevtrigger nor udevsettle have any use case outside of
> initializing udevd.  I think the OP has a point, but there's probably
> some more philosophical rationale that I'm unaware of.
>
> I wonder how much the inclusion of these two would "bloat" udevd,
> considering there's probably some overlap there anyway.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. The UNIX way is - small USEFUL
tools, joined together.

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Bryan Kadzban]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1368 bytes --]

Aaron Griffin wrote:
> Yeah, but there is a fine line there.  I mean, why don't all unix 
> tools read from stdin only, and force 'cat' usage to read files?

Because you would do this:

whatever-prog </path/to/file

or this:

</path/to/file whatever-prog

, not this:

cat /path/to/file | whatever-prog

, and the file-reading would be done by whatever-prog, not by both cat
and whatever-prog.  (whatever-prog would still have to read() from stdin
if you used a pipe; the only difference is where stdin comes from.)  ;-P

(See also the "useless use of cat" page [1].)

> Neither udevtrigger nor udevsettle have any use case outside of 
> initializing udevd.

If you assume that udevd starts up every time the uevent files need to
be poked, that'd be true.  But I don't believe that's the case: I've
poked all the uevent files many times, while doing testing of various
udev versions and rule packages.  udevd was already running; restarting
it would be a pain. (Especially if I'm currently inside a chroot, though
that doesn't usually happen.)

I'd agree that most people don't find much use in having udevtrigger be
separate, but some do.  And udevsettle is used in some cases without
udevtrigger but while udevd is up (for instance, after repartitioning,
to wait for the new hdXY or sdXY devices to show up).

[1] http://laku19.adsl.netsonic.fi/~era/unix/award.html

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[VMiklos]

2006/8/9, xandrous@gmail.com <xandrous@gmail.com>:
> Yeah, that's what I was talking about. The UNIX way is - small USEFUL
> tools, joined together.

if you have failed uevents and you re-trigger them (ie. by echoing add
to /dev/.udev/failed/foo/uevent), then you should use udevsettle to
wait till the events are handled.  this is a typical situation when
having udevtrigger as a separate tool is a big goal.

udv / greetings,
VMiklos

--
Developer of Frugalware Linux, to make things frugal - http://frugalware.org

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Marco d'Itri]

On Aug 09, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:

> Why bloat udevd, a long running daemon, with the functions needed in
> udevtrigger that would not help out udevd at all?
OTOH, having a private shared library for the common code may save some
space in the initramfs.

-- 
ciao,
Marco

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[xandrous]

> If you assume that udevd starts up every time the uevent files need to
> be poked, that'd be true.  But I don't believe that's the case: I've
> poked all the uevent files many times, while doing testing of various
> udev versions and rule packages.  udevd was already running; restarting
> it would be a pain. (Especially if I'm currently inside a chroot, though
> that doesn't usually happen.)

Whenever 'udevtrigger' is run it do the same things - request kernel
to resend devices events. The recipient is 'udevd'. In words of one
syllable it means 'udevtrigger' just notifies (over kernel) 'udevd'.
Signals! Why don't put 'udevtrigger' into 'udevd' as a signal handler
(for example, SIGHUP) and call it once at the end of startup of
'udevd' and whenever user (process) asks.

It'll get less code (the same initialization code will be called only
once) and more usability (send a signal is much easier that call any
program).

> I'd agree that most people don't find much use in having udevtrigger be
> separate, but some do.  And udevsettle is used in some cases without
> udevtrigger but while udevd is up (for instance, after repartitioning,
> to wait for the new hdXY or sdXY devices to show up).

As for 'udevsettle', it's waste! Its functionality could be done by
one-string shell- command:

while ! cmp /dev/.udev/uevent_seqnum /sys/kernel/uevent_seqnum; do
sleep .1; done

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Kay Sievers]

On Thu, 2006-08-10 at 17:03 +0400, xandrous@gmail.com wrote:
> > If you assume that udevd starts up every time the uevent files need to
> > be poked, that'd be true.  But I don't believe that's the case: I've
> > poked all the uevent files many times, while doing testing of various
> > udev versions and rule packages.  udevd was already running; restarting
> > it would be a pain. (Especially if I'm currently inside a chroot, though
> > that doesn't usually happen.)
> 
> Whenever 'udevtrigger' is run it do the same things - request kernel
> to resend devices events. The recipient is 'udevd'. In words of one
> syllable it means 'udevtrigger' just notifies (over kernel) 'udevd'.
> Signals! Why don't put 'udevtrigger' into 'udevd' as a signal handler
> (for example, SIGHUP) and call it once at the end of startup of
> 'udevd' and whenever user (process) asks.
> 
> It'll get less code (the same initialization code will be called only
> once) and more usability (send a signal is much easier that call any
> program).
> 
> > I'd agree that most people don't find much use in having udevtrigger be
> > separate, but some do.  And udevsettle is used in some cases without
> > udevtrigger but while udevd is up (for instance, after repartitioning,
> > to wait for the new hdXY or sdXY devices to show up).
> 
> As for 'udevsettle', it's waste! Its functionality could be done by
> one-string shell- command:
> 
> while ! cmp /dev/.udev/uevent_seqnum /sys/kernel/uevent_seqnum; do
> sleep .1; done

Please stop immediately posting such nonsense, you are just wasting
other people time.

Kay


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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Aaron Griffin]

On 8/10/06, Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> wrote:
> Please stop immediately posting such nonsense, you are just wasting
> other people time.

Impressive attitude you have there....

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Scott James Remnant]

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On Wed, 2006-08-09 at 20:18 +0400, xandrous@gmail.com wrote:

> Why don't you get rid of 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' utilities? Both
> of them are used only during boot-time and immediately after launching
> of 'udevd', so why doesn't 'udevd' include their functionality?
> 
In Ubuntu, we don't do a full udevtrigger when udevd is started as we're
in the initramfs; instead we just trigger those selected parts that we
need for the root filesystem.

Scott
-- 
Scott James Remnant
scott@ubuntu.com

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 09:42:16AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:
> On 8/10/06, Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> wrote:
> >Please stop immediately posting such nonsense, you are just wasting
> >other people time.
> 
> Impressive attitude you have there....

Huh?

Requests from people who want the codebase changed in big ways, without
accompanied patches or real reasons behind those changes, can be
annoying at times.

Especially when they state that a program can be rewritten using a 1
line bash script, yet that script does not contain all of the
functionality that the original program does.

And seriously, why are people so upset that the udev package contains a
150 line C program (with comments) that is stand-alone?  It's small,
does one thing quite well, and people have shown that it can be used in
other places than just the boot sequence.

If you don't like it, then don't use it.  It's that simple.  But to
complain while offering up no real rational behind the complaint, nor
patches to resolve that complaint, doesn't go very far here.

Kay was probably just trying to say this in a simple 1 line sentance.
For me, it takes 4 paragraphs :)

greg k-h

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Re: What does 'udevtrigger' & 'udevsettle' stand for?!

[Aaron Griffin]

On 8/10/06, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 10, 2006 at 09:42:16AM -0500, Aaron Griffin wrote:
> > On 8/10/06, Kay Sievers <kay.sievers@vrfy.org> wrote:
> > >Please stop immediately posting such nonsense, you are just wasting
> > >other people time.
> >
> > Impressive attitude you have there....
>
> Huh?
>
> Requests from people who want the codebase changed in big ways, without
> accompanied patches or real reasons behind those changes, can be
> annoying at times.

I never said anyone was wrong.  I just took affront to the attitude.

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