udev/ubuntu problem solved

udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Andreas Jellinghaus]

I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.

ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.

so even though I get events for /proc/bus/usb/NNN/NNN devices and they
exist if I manually look, my app doesn't find them. the reason is: udev runs
/lib/udev/openct_usb, but creates the device in /dev/bus/usb (and thus on
ubuntu /proc/bus/usb) only after my script finishes. while I can add sleeps
to avoid races, they don't help because udev will not create the device until
my script gives up.

the solution is to add some

( ...

) &
disown %1

exit 0

in my script so the core code runs in the background, where it can wait
for the device file to be created by udev and then start the ifdhandler 
process that will handle it.

also during debugging I noticed: it is not a good idea to start/stop udev
using the init script. at first I thought udev wasn't re-reading it rules
properly, so I tried that. but the result of restarting udev init script is
this: /proc/bus/usb is no longer a bind mount of /dev/bus/usb. instead it
is an independend copy, and it is no longer updated at all. thus new devices
show up only in /dev/bus/usb and /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs, but not 
in /proc/bus/usb/.

Regards, Andreas

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Kay Sievers]

On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
>
> ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
> and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.

What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
/dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
is totally broken.

> so even though I get events for /proc/bus/usb/NNN/NNN devices and they
> exist if I manually look, my app doesn't find them. the reason is: udev runs
> /lib/udev/openct_usb, but creates the device in /dev/bus/usb (and thus on
> ubuntu /proc/bus/usb) only after my script finishes. while I can add sleeps
> to avoid races, they don't help because udev will not create the device until
> my script gives up.

Are you using PROGRAM? That is for plugging external program into udev
to give devices a name or symlink. If you use RUN+=, your program
never runs before the node and all symlinks are created.

> also during debugging I noticed: it is not a good idea to start/stop udev
> using the init script. at first I thought udev wasn't re-reading it rules
> properly, so I tried that.

Nobody should ever stop udev, You may miss important system events here.

> the result of restarting udev init script is
> this: /proc/bus/usb is no longer a bind mount of /dev/bus/usb

Well, systems that do such crap, just ask for trouble like this.

Kay

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Andreas Jellinghaus]

On Tuesday 10 July 2007 17:39:24 Kay Sievers wrote:
> What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> is totally broken.

I was worried about that too. I guess they made that change so all 
applications get the benefit of the ACL's in /dev/bus/usb without changes
to the source code (i.e. path adjustment).

> Are you using PROGRAM? That is for plugging external program into udev
> to give devices a name or symlink. If you use RUN+=, your program
> never runs before the node and all symlinks are created.

no I'm using RUN+= and I thought this would work the wy you described.
testing on ubuntu edgy (which has udev 108-0ubuntu4) shows this is different.
when I have my loop inside the script I RUN+= I can increase the timeout to 20 
seconds, still it times out as the $DEVICE file is not there. if I have the 
script start the loop in the background then it find the file after 100 ms 
(one sleep).

maybe my diagnosis is a bit off: not the device file is created late, but the 
DEVICE event is processed first, and the other events are in a queue in the 
meantime till my RUN+= script is finished? and some other event triggers the 
creation of /dev/bus/usb/NNN/NNN and it is processes after the event with 
MODALIAS and DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/NNN/NNN ? that would explain what I'm seing 
too. is this explanation possible?

Thanks,

Andreas

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Kay Sievers]

On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> On Tuesday 10 July 2007 17:39:24 Kay Sievers wrote:
> > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > is totally broken.
>
> I was worried about that too. I guess they made that change so all
> applications get the benefit of the ACL's in /dev/bus/usb without changes
> to the source code (i.e. path adjustment).

Libusb takes care of that, it handles /dev/bus/usb by default, and
falls back to /proc if it doesn't exist.

> > Are you using PROGRAM? That is for plugging external program into udev
> > to give devices a name or symlink. If you use RUN+=, your program
> > never runs before the node and all symlinks are created.
>
> no I'm using RUN+= and I thought this would work the wy you described.
> testing on ubuntu edgy (which has udev 108-0ubuntu4) shows this is different.
> when I have my loop inside the script I RUN+= I can increase the timeout to 20
> seconds, still it times out as the $DEVICE file is not there. if I have the
> script start the loop in the background then it find the file after 100 ms
> (one sleep).

Oh, you are on a different event, not the one that creates the node.
The "usb_device" class devices create the node, but you hook into the
usb interface. On older kernel it's a timing problem, without a proper
solution. Kernel 2.6.22 will create the device nodes from the parent
device of the interface, so in the future this work properly.

> maybe my diagnosis is a bit off: not the device file is created late, but the
> DEVICE event is processed first, and the other events are in a queue in the
> meantime till my RUN+= script is finished? and some other event triggers the
> creation of /dev/bus/usb/NNN/NNN and it is processes after the event with
> MODALIAS and DEVICE=/proc/bus/usb/NNN/NNN ? that would explain what I'm seing
> too. is this explanation possible?

Yeah, the "interface device" and the "node device" are siblings in the
kernel device tree and therefore have no defined order and udev can't
access the properties from each other. 2.6.22 should solve that
problem.

Kay

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Andreas Jellinghaus]

so if udev gets several events: are those processed serialized or in
parallel?

if serialized (including waiting for any RUN+= job to finish) it would
explain the problems I'm seeing.

Thanks.

Regards, Andreas


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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Scott James Remnant]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 959 bytes --]

On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:

> On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> >
> > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
> > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> 
> What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> is totally broken.
> 
It works <g>

What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).

The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.

We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
VMware!

Scott
-- 
Scott James Remnant
Ubuntu Development Manager
scott@ubuntu.com

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Kay Sievers]

On 7/11/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@ciphirelabs.com> wrote:
> so if udev gets several events: are those processed serialized or in
> parallel?
>
> if serialized (including waiting for any RUN+= job to finish) it would
> explain the problems I'm seeing.

One after the other for the same event, yes. All RUN keys for one
device run after all rules are processed and the device node is
created.
Multiple events run at the same time, if they don't depend on each
other, like a child always waits for the parent to finish.

Kay

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Greg KH]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:31AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
> 
> > On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> > >
> > > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
> > > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> > 
> > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > is totally broken.
> > 
> It works <g>
> 
> What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
> symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
> that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).
> 
> The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
> using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.
> 
> We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
> VMware!

vmware originally said they would fix their program up to handle this
properly.  Unfortunatly, they seem to have forgotten this and do not
seem to be willing to do this, especially when distros do looney things
like this to apease them :)

thanks,

greg k-h

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Scott James Remnant]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1568 bytes --]

On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 17:35 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:31AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
> > 
> > > On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > > > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> > > >
> > > > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
> > > > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> > > 
> > > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > > is totally broken.
> > > 
> > It works <g>
> > 
> > What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
> > symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
> > that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).
> > 
> > The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
> > using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.
> > 
> > We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
> > VMware!
> 
> vmware originally said they would fix their program up to handle this
> properly.  Unfortunatly, they seem to have forgotten this and do not
> seem to be willing to do this, especially when distros do looney things
> like this to apease them :)
> 
VMware appears to work on my laptop here, which is running the
development version of Ubuntu (which lacks the /proc/bus/usb hack).

Scott
-- 
Scott James Remnant
Ubuntu Development Manager
scott@ubuntu.com

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 09:52:15AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 17:35 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:31AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > > On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > > > > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> > > > >
> > > > > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/usb/.usbfs
> > > > > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> > > > 
> > > > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > > > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > > > is totally broken.
> > > > 
> > > It works <g>
> > > 
> > > What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
> > > symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
> > > that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).
> > > 
> > > The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
> > > using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.
> > > 
> > > We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
> > > VMware!
> > 
> > vmware originally said they would fix their program up to handle this
> > properly.  Unfortunatly, they seem to have forgotten this and do not
> > seem to be willing to do this, especially when distros do looney things
> > like this to apease them :)
> > 
> VMware appears to work on my laptop here, which is running the
> development version of Ubuntu (which lacks the /proc/bus/usb hack).

Are you using usb devices within the guest operating systems and Ubuntu
as the host os?

thanks,

greg k-h

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Scott James Remnant]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1933 bytes --]

On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 09:09 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 09:52:15AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 17:35 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:31AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > > > > > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/us/.usbfs
> > > > > > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> > > > > 
> > > > > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > > > > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > > > > is totally broken.
> > > > > 
> > > > It works <g>
> > > > 
> > > > What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
> > > > symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
> > > > that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).
> > > > 
> > > > The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
> > > > using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.
> > > > 
> > > > We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
> > > > VMware!
> > > 
> > > vmware originally said they would fix their program up to handle this
> > > properly.  Unfortunatly, they seem to have forgotten this and do not
> > > seem to be willing to do this, especially when distros do looney things
> > > like this to apease them :)
> > > 
> > VMware appears to work on my laptop here, which is running the
> > development version of Ubuntu (which lacks the /proc/bus/usb hack).
> 
> Are you using usb devices within the guest operating systems and Ubuntu
> as the host os?
> 
Yes

Scott
-- 
Scott James Remnant
Ubuntu Development Manager
scott@ubuntu.com

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Greg KH]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 05:58:43PM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 09:09 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 12, 2007 at 09:52:15AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 17:35 -0700, Greg KH wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 09:34:31AM +0100, Scott James Remnant wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 2007-07-10 at 17:39 +0200, Kay Sievers wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > On 7/10/07, Andreas Jellinghaus <aj@dungeon.inka.de> wrote:
> > > > > > > I finally figured out what is wrong with udev on ubuntu.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ubuntu mounts usbfs as /proc/bus/us/.usbfs
> > > > > > > and has udev create /dev/bus/usb and bind-mounts that as /proc/bus/usb.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > What are theses guys smoking? That's so sick to bind-mount
> > > > > > /dev-directories to /proc! I wouldn't support such a system at all. It
> > > > > > is totally broken.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > It works <g>
> > > > > 
> > > > > What we do is mount the usbfs filesystem on /dev/bus/usb/.usbfs, and
> > > > > symlink the devices file from that into the parent directory (so
> > > > > that /dev/bus/usb/devices exists).
> > > > > 
> > > > > The whole lot is then bind-mounted to /proc/bus/usb; so an application
> > > > > using /proc/bus/usb sees the same tree as a fixed one.
> > > > > 
> > > > > We would fix the apps, but unfortunately we don't have the source to
> > > > > VMware!
> > > > 
> > > > vmware originally said they would fix their program up to handle this
> > > > properly.  Unfortunatly, they seem to have forgotten this and do not
> > > > seem to be willing to do this, especially when distros do looney things
> > > > like this to apease them :)
> > > > 
> > > VMware appears to work on my laptop here, which is running the
> > > development version of Ubuntu (which lacks the /proc/bus/usb hack).
> > 
> > Are you using usb devices within the guest operating systems and Ubuntu
> > as the host os?
> > 
> Yes

Great, then you can disable that bind mount from your init scripts and
everyone will be happy :)

thanks,

greg k-h

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Re: udev/ubuntu problem solved

[Scott James Remnant]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 264 bytes --]

On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 11:37 -0700, Greg KH wrote:

> Great, then you can disable that bind mount from your init scripts and
> everyone will be happy :)
> 
It's already disabled

Scott
-- 
Scott James Remnant
Ubuntu Development Manager
scott@ubuntu.com

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