Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[Greg KH]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 06:40:00PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
> 
> HI,
> 
> ? I found out a while ago that udev will be using polkit.
> Which
> this was another authentication type you could use by CHIOCE, which was
> policykit/Consolekit and Pam. I do know there is a patch since I have
> it to work around Pam. But it is the fact we are still forced with the
> other parts of the cancer stick. Even if we use shadow or there was
> another style of authentication its useless. Because the dominating one
> is still in control and not the one we would like to still use. I
> really feel disappointed in Linux now after 10+ years . Its no longer
> about and working with choices. Its following the same path as
> Microsoft . Consolekit/Polkit is the IE/Directx of linux now and that's
> really sad. I dunno what I'm going to do now But I'm ready to give up
> on Linux now. I have been holding back on putting out an article . But
> It looks like I will now. I'm sure Microsoft should be happy to hear it
> too. Its all about the favoritism and not caring about the smaller %
> that doesn't want it. There is enough proof on Google the bugs and
> constant guaranteed breakage. But I had nothing against people using it
> But now my system will be infested with this same crap and I don't want
> it .
> Anyway as the rest I've probably wasted my time . I really wish
> there was a patch to drop Consolekit too,? to let my chioce of
> authentication have full control. But like I said its simple to see how
> this one type of authentication has made Linux not care about choice
> any more. the Brute force has won :(

You have the choice to use a distro that does not use these tools if you
do not like it, and you have the choice to create a distro that does not
use them if you can't find one.

And most importantly, no one is forcing you to use Linux :)

good luck,

greg k-h

Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[Kay Sievers]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 20:54, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 06:40:00PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
>>
>> ? I found out a while ago that udev will be using polkit.
>> Which
>> this was another authentication type you could use by CHIOCE, which was
>> policykit/Consolekit and Pam. I do know there is a patch since I have
>> it to work around Pam. But it is the fact we are still forced with the
>> other parts of the cancer stick. Even if we use shadow or there was
>> another style of authentication its useless. Because the dominating one
>> is still in control and not the one we would like to still use. I
>> really feel disappointed in Linux now after 10+ years . Its no longer
>> about and working with choices. Its following the same path as
>> Microsoft . Consolekit/Polkit is the IE/Directx of linux now and that's
>> really sad. I dunno what I'm going to do now But I'm ready to give up
>> on Linux now. I have been holding back on putting out an article . But
>> It looks like I will now. I'm sure Microsoft should be happy to hear it
>> too. Its all about the favoritism and not caring about the smaller %
>> that doesn't want it. There is enough proof on Google the bugs and
>> constant guaranteed breakage. But I had nothing against people using it
>> But now my system will be infested with this same crap and I don't want
>> it .
>> Anyway as the rest I've probably wasted my time . I really wish
>> there was a patch to drop Consolekit too,? to let my chioce of
>> authentication have full control. But like I said its simple to see how
>> this one type of authentication has made Linux not care about choice
>> any more. the Brute force has won :(
>
> You have the choice to use a distro that does not use these tools if you
> do not like it, and you have the choice to create a distro that does not
> use them if you can't find one.
>
> And most importantly, no one is forcing you to use Linux :)

And udev does not use ConsoleKit or PolicyKit. :)

Kay

RE: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[oneforall immortal]

The newer one will because its replacing Hal with POLKIT-1 , which
requires Consolekit. I do have a patch to drop Pam . But Consolekit is
still there and still a bug invested guaranteed breakage (working and
compiling ). Plus this all styarted for me with KDE4 either we are
forced to use polkit/consolekit/patch and still have a broken system or
go all the way with Pam for a full cancer stick. Also please there is
more than enought proof that these do cause a great anount of problems
. even tonight I was still finding people having the same problems and
they have pam . It been like that for years . It is an authentication
many of use done't want to use and would apreciate it bein all put back
in. It should never have been dropped in the first place. I hate udev
as it is and never liked hal either and this makes it even more proof
of what i said in the irc channels that it would get worse.
> I
loved linux but this has put it in the black book now. Totally
disappointed how it could go from something so good respecting all
linux platforms. But now only wanting to work with the selected
favorites.
> Fact is too the time was taken to cut out what
worked and should still work. Instead of working the other in to have
both options and not one forcing the other to use it . Giving it only
partial control .
whoops never hit reply to all, never used it before or email much :)
----------------------------------------
> From: kay.sievers@vrfy.org
> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:05:37 +0200
> Subject: Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?
> To: greg@kroah.com
> CC: oneforall59@hotmail.com; linux-hotplug@vger.kernel.org
>
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 20:54, Greg KH  wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 06:40:00PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
>>>
>>> ? I found out a while ago that udev will be using polkit.
>>> Which
>>> this was another authentication type you could use by CHIOCE, which was
>>> policykit/Consolekit and Pam. I do know there is a patch since I have
>>> it to work around Pam. But it is the fact we are still forced with the
>>> other parts of the cancer stick. Even if we use shadow or there was
>>> another style of authentication its useless. Because the dominating one
>>> is still in control and not the one we would like to still use. I
>>> really feel disappointed in Linux now after 10+ years . Its no longer
>>> about and working with choices. Its following the same path as
>>> Microsoft . Consolekit/Polkit is the IE/Directx of linux now and that's
>>> really sad. I dunno what I'm going to do now But I'm ready to give up
>>> on Linux now. I have been holding back on putting out an article . But
>>> It looks like I will now. I'm sure Microsoft should be happy to hear it
>>> too. Its all about the favoritism and not caring about the smaller %
>>> that doesn't want it. There is enough proof on Google the bugs and
>>> constant guaranteed breakage. But I had nothing against people using it
>>> But now my system will be infested with this same crap and I don't want
>>> it .
>>> Anyway as the rest I've probably wasted my time . I really wish
>>> there was a patch to drop Consolekit too,? to let my chioce of
>>> authentication have full control. But like I said its simple to see how
>>> this one type of authentication has made Linux not care about choice
>>> any more. the Brute force has won :(
>>
>> You have the choice to use a distro that does not use these tools if you
>> do not like it, and you have the choice to create a distro that does not
>> use them if you can't find one.
>>
>> And most importantly, no one is forcing you to use Linux :)
>
> And udev does not use ConsoleKit or PolicyKit. :)
>
> Kay
 		 	   		  
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Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[Greg KH]

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 05:41:28AM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
> 
> The newer one will because its replacing Hal with POLKIT-1 , which
> requires Consolekit. I do have a patch to drop Pam . But Consolekit is
> still there and still a bug invested guaranteed breakage (working and
> compiling ). Plus this all styarted for me with KDE4 either we are
> forced to use polkit/consolekit/patch and still have a broken system or
> go all the way with Pam for a full cancer stick. Also please there is
> more than enought proof that these do cause a great anount of problems
> . even tonight I was still finding people having the same problems and
> they have pam . It been like that for years . It is an authentication
> many of use done't want to use and would apreciate it bein all put back
> in. It should never have been dropped in the first place. I hate udev
> as it is and never liked hal either and this makes it even more proof
> of what i said in the irc channels that it would get worse.

Please post specific bugs you have, to the distro you use, and they will
resolve them.  Rants without specifics get you nowhere.

> I loved linux but this has put it in the black book now. Totally
> disappointed how it could go from something so good respecting all
> linux platforms. But now only wanting to work with the selected
> favorites.

What exactly do you mean here?  Specifics please.

> Fact is too the time was taken to cut out what worked and should still
> work.

Again, what are you referring to?

> Instead of working the other in to have both options and not one
> forcing the other to use it . Giving it only partial control .

What do you mean?

greg k-h

RE: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[oneforall immortal]

I had given the specifics:
1) kde 4 has moved to using polkit for authentication and the reason they say is because of udev .
2) Udev is dropping hal and using polkit. 
3) Polkit requires Consolekit and pam.  Some one made a patch for that . But it still wants Consolekit which is just as bad as Pam. 
4) As far as distros, so far all since last year they are just as stuck as I am . 
5) I have my own cross compiled 64 bit 
6) most are trying to get polkit(no pam)patced to use shadow still consolkit etc to work 
7) from the last oen here that explains more than enought of how this 1 type of authentication is making the other chioce a pain. So thats why I'm not impress\ed with the disregard to other platforms and users even if we are just a small group and a few platforms. This stuff worked but is being cut off purposely. 
8)  Maybe with this --disable-extras will be the way , But I duno yet and maybe we have been lead up the garden path so to speak.


now some one said to use --disable-extras

But I have to ask if thats to udev , polkit ..  and also need to look and see what all extras its going to effect.
I know it mail to udev but its all part of it as far as I know. Right now I'm using the udev-151
with hal-0.5.14  (--disable-policy-kit  --disable-console-kit) thats always been disabled and hope I never have too :)

anyway I have to work on my van so I wont be able to ask Martin Pitt a few questions till tomorrow .


 		 	   		  
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Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[Greg KH]

A: No.
Q: Should I include quotations after my reply?

http://daringfireball.net/2007/07/on_top

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:10:05PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
> 
> I had given the specifics:
> 1) kde 4 has moved to using polkit for authentication and the reason they say is because of udev .

Then ask the kde developers about this.

> 2) Udev is dropping hal and using polkit. 

udev never used HAL.  HAL is now no longer being developed.

> 3) Polkit requires Consolekit and pam.? Some one made a patch for that . But it still wants Consolekit which is just as bad as Pam. 

Ok, but that has nothing to do with udev.

> 4) As far as distros, so far all since last year they are just as stuck as I am . 

What is "stuck"?

For some reason you do not like consolekit, which is fine.  But then go
talk to the developers of consolekit about this, not the udev
developers, who have nothing to do with it.

> 5) I have my own cross compiled 64 bit 

cross compiled what?

> 6) most are trying to get polkit(no pam)patced to use shadow still consolkit etc to work 

Again, go discuss this with those developers.

> 7) from the last oen here that explains more than enought of how this
> 1 type of authentication is making the other chioce a pain. So thats
> why I'm not impress\ed with the disregard to other platforms and users
> even if we are just a small group and a few platforms. This stuff
> worked but is being cut off purposely. 

Again, I don't see anything "cut off".

> 8)? Maybe with this --disable-extras will be the way , But I duno yet
> and maybe we have been lead up the garden path so to speak.

Again, specifics?

> now some one said to use --disable-extras

Yes, and you should be fine.

good luck,

greg k-h

Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[Kay Sievers]

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 00:29, Greg KH <greg@kroah.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:10:05PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
>>
>> I had given the specifics:
>> 1) kde 4 has moved to using polkit for authentication and the reason they say is because of udev .
>
> Then ask the kde developers about this.

Anyone who would say that has no idea what he's talking. Polkit has
absolutely no connection to udev, nor the other way around.

>> 2) Udev is dropping hal and using polkit.
>
> udev never used HAL.  HAL is now no longer being developed.

Right, and HAL uses udev, not the other way around. Polkit is
completely unrelated to udev.

>> 3) Polkit requires Consolekit and pam.? Some one made a patch for that . But it still wants Consolekit which is just as bad as Pam.
>
> Ok, but that has nothing to do with udev.

Right, nothing. :)

>> 4) As far as distros, so far all since last year they are just as stuck as I am .
>
> What is "stuck"?

Stuck in trying to understand how things work today, I guess. :)

> For some reason you do not like consolekit, which is fine.  But then go
> talk to the developers of consolekit about this, not the udev
> developers, who have nothing to do with it.

I doubt that there is much to discuss. :)

Authorizations on the modern multi-user desktop care about if users
are locally logged-in or from remote, and need to associate requesting
processes with user sessions -- hence we absolutely need ConsoleKit.
It's part of the core technologies. If people don't want a modern
desktop, they should use an old one. There is plenty of old-school
stuff to install around.

>> 5) I have my own cross compiled 64 bit
>
> cross compiled what?
>
>> 6) most are trying to get polkit(no pam)patced to use shadow still consolkit etc to work
>
> Again, go discuss this with those developers.

And again, there are plenty of old-school desktops around to use. Just
avoid a desktop which needs it, if you don't like it.

>> 7) from the last oen here that explains more than enought of how this
>> 1 type of authentication is making the other chioce a pain. So thats
>> why I'm not impress\ed with the disregard to other platforms and users
>> even if we are just a small group and a few platforms. This stuff
>> worked but is being cut off purposely.
>
> Again, I don't see anything "cut off".

It's all free software, update your platform/system yourself, if
nobody else is doing it, or watch the platforms who don't care start
to bitrot. It's your choice. But don't blame the people who do the
work, that it does not fit your taste, that's not how things will work
out for you.

>> 8)? Maybe with this --disable-extras will be the way , But I duno yet
>> and maybe we have been lead up the garden path so to speak.
>
> Again, specifics?
>
>> now some one said to use --disable-extras
>
> Yes, and you should be fine.

That's not even needed. Udev does not care about ConsoleKit. There is
tiny extra in udev which can manage device ACLs with the information
ConsoleKit provides. If ConsoleKit is not there, it will just do
nothing. No need to disable anything, just ignore it.

Kay

RE: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[oneforall immortal]

yes it isn't udev dropping hall was lead to believe it was . But udev if you do have consolekit it does look for it and nothing to disable it.

But as far as modem please stop the bull about platforms that use polkit/consolkit/pam as superior and modern . Thats not true its another way and nothing more. There are many of us that are quit happy and still could have a modern desktop like we did with the last "POLITCAL CORRECT" kde 4.3.5. Thats worked as it should. The fact is it still should be able to But The lact of respect for other platforms of linux seems to be gone now. Just like doing ck-list-session. there are other cammads to see whos on w for one ps <options> and more so Its really useless to us(consolekit). There is more proof by just googling of the constant problems and guaranteed breakage with Pam and all it parts Policykit(what ever flavor)/Consolekit. Even if you disabled pam the fact is that Consolekit doesn't work well with out it , which doesn't surprise me at all. 

Polkit-1: even when you pick shadow pam=no but it wants to have pam in the helper section. So that is a definate bug with it. Plus it would need to poke at consolekit. But honestly I'd rather not have that cancer on my system and shouldn't have to to have things work. "ConsoleKit  is a framework for . defining"  just incase you say it doesn't do authentication , it does take control since it is defining how things should go and not letting it be shadow in complete control.
Fact is this one Authentication theme has become the dominating one and its sad and extremely disappointing. Just makes Linux look as horrible as microsoft now
Anyway I'm just going to email :polkit-devel@lists.freedesktop.org  		 	   		  
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RE: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?

[oneforall immortal]

Plus old school so is Pam so lets drop that too and policykit and it new flavors , Because weather it has newer flavors so does Pam/shadow since they are still actively developed. This crap of modern is the best thisng is just that a load of crap. There are old libs and apps still used. If we drop em cauise they are old shool there wouldn't be much left.

----------------------------------------
> From: kay.sievers@vrfy.org
> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:01:09 +0200
> Subject: Re: Polkit/Consolekit cancer stick?
> To: greg@kroah.com
> CC: oneforall59@hotmail.com; linux-hotplug@vger.kernel.org
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 00:29, Greg KH  wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:10:05PM +0000, oneforall immortal wrote:
>>>
>>> I had given the specifics:
>>> 1) kde 4 has moved to using polkit for authentication and the reason they say is because of udev .
>>
>> Then ask the kde developers about this.
>
> Anyone who would say that has no idea what he's talking. Polkit has
> absolutely no connection to udev, nor the other way around.
>
>>> 2) Udev is dropping hal and using polkit.
>>
>> udev never used HAL.  HAL is now no longer being developed.
>
> Right, and HAL uses udev, not the other way around. Polkit is
> completely unrelated to udev.
>
>>> 3) Polkit requires Consolekit and pam.? Some one made a patch for that . But it still wants Consolekit which is just as bad as Pam.
>>
>> Ok, but that has nothing to do with udev.
>
> Right, nothing. :)
>
>>> 4) As far as distros, so far all since last year they are just as stuck as I am .
>>
>> What is "stuck"?
>
> Stuck in trying to understand how things work today, I guess. :)
>
>> For some reason you do not like consolekit, which is fine.  But then go
>> talk to the developers of consolekit about this, not the udev
>> developers, who have nothing to do with it.
>
> I doubt that there is much to discuss. :)
>
> Authorizations on the modern multi-user desktop care about if users
> are locally logged-in or from remote, and need to associate requesting
> processes with user sessions -- hence we absolutely need ConsoleKit.
> It's part of the core technologies. If people don't want a modern
> desktop, they should use an old one. There is plenty of old-school
> stuff to install around.
>
>>> 5) I have my own cross compiled 64 bit
>>
>> cross compiled what?
>>
>>> 6) most are trying to get polkit(no pam)patced to use shadow still consolkit etc to work
>>
>> Again, go discuss this with those developers.
>
> And again, there are plenty of old-school desktops around to use. Just
> avoid a desktop which needs it, if you don't like it.
>
>>> 7) from the last oen here that explains more than enought of how this
>>> 1 type of authentication is making the other chioce a pain. So thats
>>> why I'm not impress\ed with the disregard to other platforms and users
>>> even if we are just a small group and a few platforms. This stuff
>>> worked but is being cut off purposely.
>>
>> Again, I don't see anything "cut off".
>
> It's all free software, update your platform/system yourself, if
> nobody else is doing it, or watch the platforms who don't care start
> to bitrot. It's your choice. But don't blame the people who do the
> work, that it does not fit your taste, that's not how things will work
> out for you.
>
>>> 8)? Maybe with this --disable-extras will be the way , But I duno yet
>>> and maybe we have been lead up the garden path so to speak.
>>
>> Again, specifics?
>>
>>> now some one said to use --disable-extras
>>
>> Yes, and you should be fine.
>
> That's not even needed. Udev does not care about ConsoleKit. There is
> tiny extra in udev which can manage device ACLs with the information
> ConsoleKit provides. If ConsoleKit is not there, it will just do
> nothing. No need to disable anything, just ignore it.
>
> Kay
 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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